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  • Topspin Forehands: Uninhibited Waterwheel Form and Knock Out the Dog

    It's just something I want to try, having hit a total of one successful shot in match-play this way (yesterday).

    I'm sick of the timing pause near top of the loop that Segura, Metzler and other extremely brilliant tennis minds so strongly advocate.

    Such a pause is supposed to through abbreviation lend control to my shots but merely makes me late.

    So, with perfect waterwheel form and new determination to get the waterwheel around I will press palm down, even shoot it down, will straighten the elbow down for an extra burst of energy.

    "Don't knock out the dog," said Rick Macci as he introduced his concept of dogpat.

    But when someone tells you not to do something-- often but not always-- you should try it.

    The working concept here comes from flat shots in which gradual straightening from the elbow appears the best possible route.

    Am trying now to get rid of such arm push, great in a flat shot but only confusing to the generation of purity of topspin.

    Vigorous straightening of the arm will not hurt the arm if it occurs somewhat before contact with the ball. What it should do is create a long lever bowling forward and up to create pure spin with or without the additive of wipe or twirl.

    Immediate question: Does not this form create contact so far out front that it is beyond the control of any human being on earth? Immediately possible answer: Be like Federer and hit the ball with large separation out to side.
    Last edited by bottle; 06-29-2017, 03:54 AM.

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    • Torn Attention

      My focus like that of any multiculturist is torn today between the Henley Royal Regatta as seen nonstop on YouTube complete with innovative drone coverage and "unfettered" commentary and self-feed in Rouge Park, Detroit.

      Since this is a tennis website I go more with Rouge Park although I have to say, as an experienced crew coach in eight-oared rowing, one can get a good idea of the speed of a boat by watching a single stroke through the eyes of an overhead drone. One can also see the expression on every oarsman's face and the balance of the whole boat when viewed from slightly behind the backs, but the apprehension of speed I am talking about is determined by knowledgeable observation of strokes per minute combined with distance between each set of "puddles," the Homer-called or is it Vergil-called or both "fading footprints" left by each oar in one's wake.

      I'm not usually a partisan supporter of rich private schools attended by the children of American presidents, however, St. Alban's upset victory today over Montclair (N.J.) H.S. is a huge win for the schoolboy crews of the Potomac, a group to whom I am permanently beholden since the late dean of that group, Charlie Butt, was my personal mentor through Annapolis certification and drove all the way out to Morgantown at 55 m.p.h. to help me with my winning crews at West Virginia University.

      As for Rouge Park, there must have been a reason the attendants finally mowed the 4-foot weeds, perhaps the sudden appearance of a tennis player out on those Plymouth Street courts. If they now resurface all those courts I guess I'll have to start a tennis school.

      Straight wrist in Ellie-bams is a promising change and "a keeper" although requiring additional changes in one's backswing.
      Last edited by bottle; 06-30-2017, 04:14 AM.

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      • Could Elbow Remain Set at One Level for the Small Loop of an Ellie-bam?

        Absolutely. It's not what Ellsworth Vines did but perhaps is easier.

        Remember, the arm is quite bent. And if it squeezed a bit more before opening out, I wouldn't mind. I would simply call that making something mechanical more organic.

        But wrist is straight throughout in this latest iteration of an Ellie-bam.

        To put sufficient forward sweep before the pivot I recommend moving elbow independently backward while it twists yet remains on its fixed level.

        Thus the farm gate potential of bent arm can be utilized. That implies horizontal movement of the hand and racket. But when loop is "pencil-thin" one can next turn elbow down a bit without mishap.

        Back and loop, I am recommending, with elbow gliding backward faster than the turning bod, and hand but not elbow then settling down to hit level.

        So that is backswing, with some farm gate or short hinge quality built in. Foreswing is just the opposite, with elbow in the center moving whole arm to either side of it.

        Gliding elbow back a substantial amount encourages more of a round-about elbow swing forward, I believe, which in turn keeps racket face from opening too much as would happen if one crowded the ball or bowled. Or failed to straighten elbow gradually.

        Then comes the pivot which in old photography made the racket disappear.

        Whittling Down the Forehand Array:

        I think I've expressed my cantankerous view that of the whole group of coach and his 1930's champions, Mercer Beasley, although a self-promoter, was smartest of the lot.

        I loved learning that certain players resisted the close behind backswing and gradual extension outward of the Beasley-bam, perhaps the most energy-saving and consistent forehand I have ever had the pleasure to hit.

        Still, like those other resisters I was skeptical, thinking such squeeze together of the arm might waste time. So I invented a shortcut, the Beasily-bam, which I now discard. The Beasley-bam and the Beasily-bam both make use of three counts and take the same amount of time to get off, so why bother to have both?
        Last edited by bottle; 06-30-2017, 04:06 AM.

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        • Discard Waterwheel Forehand too?

          I've tried to do that before then changed my mind since that stroke is reliable under pressure.

          But it certainly does change the level of the elbow bigtime.

          A lesson to draw from the newly acquired Beasley-bam is that many forehands can keep elbow at a single level or close to it.

          And what else is Roger Federer doing when he keeps elbow where it was and lets racket tip come up at beginning of his forehand?

          So the Federfore is trying to have resurgence in my game.

          Squeeze racket up (count one). Do a straight-arming mondoeing sideways dog knockout toward right fence (count two). Pivot into ball while sweeping it while twirling arm for extra topspin (count three).

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          • Try Something Else, Anything New and Why

            Ellie-bams were working perfectly firing like Breitbart brickbats into every corner, changing people's perception of the world and of you as its messenger.

            But then the venue shifted from self-feed to actual play and not a single Ellie-bam stayed in court except for the last shot of the day, but that one took the match only because of funky unwanted spin, not one's desirable knuckled nonspin.

            Moral of the story? "Self-feed is no good." Or any other panicked and absolutist statement so endemic to a Breitbart bigot.

            Try simple rise of elbow of four inches (but no more) as hands stay connected by the racket. Was that a count? It was count one.

            Now do a bent-arm breast-stroke (count two). Now hit the ball (count three).

            Is this simplification? Yes.

            For now the hitting hand is far back enough though no longer in the slot, rather around the back.

            Better yet, all three counts are tied together by a single cue: "Move the elbow."

            Three separate moves of the elbow constitute continuous movement of the elbow.

            And I once played "Elbow," a dumb cop in MEASURE FOR MEASURE by William Shakespeare, so how can this scheme possibly fail?
            Last edited by bottle; 07-01-2017, 07:10 AM.

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            • Unfettered YouTube Commentator, 2017 Henley Royal Regatta

              "If you're a tennis player or a golfer, you're just trying to complete the perfect stroke, and it's never quite there."
              Last edited by bottle; 07-01-2017, 09:00 AM.

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              • Originally posted by bottle View Post
                Try Something Else, Anything New and Why

                Try simple rise of elbow of four inches (but no more) as hands stay connected by the racket.
                Nope. More like seven inches or eight. So elbow goes way out to right (count one), then comes way back to inside, not in slot at all (count two), then swings (count three).

                Oldsters, if they followed thus far, would begin to talk about getting hips out of the way of the stroke. Nope. The hips pivot is going to be delayed. One will swing elbow inside out. The arm will straighten gradually and continue to do so right through the pivot until arm and racket are both pointing directly at the target wherever that might be.

                I see no reason to bend arm after straightening it a bit like Ellsworth Vines. That is a finesse that an ordinary person needs like a hole in the head. And this way one can absolutely cream a ball which after it lands will hardly come up at all.

                Maybe some people are stronger from fairly close in behind their back than from out in the slot, deep.

                Next task: Take this shot from self-feed to actual play with no loss of efficiency.

                Note: If trying like this to find the variation of Ellie-bam that works for oneself, one must concentrate on it to the exclusion of everything else-- no self-fed Federfores or serves or lob practice. Limiting oneself in this fashion, one can come up with the greatest hit-and-miss shot in tennis history, which is what one wanted, no? To mix with more reliable shots at a time when one wants to take a chance.
                Last edited by bottle; 07-01-2017, 08:58 AM.

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                • Total Commitment to the New Shot

                  Imagine that you have hit this shot-- The Ellie-bam-- 10,000 times per hour for 10,000 hours over 10,000 miles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8CcCQyj4fc). The impassive look on Malcolm Gladwell's face as the ball zips past him at 10,000 miles per hour will reveal that he can't tell the difference between some imagined shot and one with 10,000 miles behind it.

                  And we finally will have learned how to fake something as masterfully as little Malcolm's 10,000-suckers-per-second 10,000 thesis even though the expression "little Malcolm" sounds too much like "little Marco."

                  The real question is whether one will be able to make clean contact with a tennis ball the first time it comes toward one from across the net.

                  I don't see why not. Some new shots, e.g., The Beasley-bam, went from concept to instant reality in testament to the excellence of Beasley's original concept.

                  Note: Don't take old shots for granted however. You don't want to think you no longer need them. The Beasley-bam itself, which I had vaunted as most consistent shot ever, suddenly went sour on me last Friday. Fortunately I had learned from computer technology to look for a restore point, i.e., line up racket point position with right shoulder.
                  Last edited by bottle; 07-02-2017, 02:09 PM.

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                  • First Return Worked

                    Encouraging. So I hit nothing but this version of the new Ellie-bam for the full two hours of our Grosse Pointe Senior Men's Tennis Association 20-person (and sometime 30-person) round-robin play.

                    There remains a lot to do however. And since I don't have access to a good court with hitting partner here in Franklin Park, I shall continue to do self-feed on the newly mowed seven hard courts with net still up in Rouge Park, Detroit on Plymouth Street, quite a bit west from Grosse Pointe but still in Motor City.

                    Have yet to see another player out on those be-whiskered courts which I must admit I have come to love.

                    When I have hit 10,000 Ellie-bams in self-feed, I suspect the non-momentum producing breast-stroke or swan dive that constitutes count two will become smooth enough to accommodate a variety of footworks going on at the same time.

                    And that there will be less hesitation to delay weight transfer all the way to the hips pivot that supplies power and direction at the end of each one of these shots.

                    And greater melding together of the three elbow movements that constitute count 1, count 2 and count 2&1/2 .

                    All of these Ellie-bams were effective, but three or four of them were as spectacular as anything in self-feed, clean winner like a forehand hit by Ellsworth Vines.
                    Last edited by bottle; 07-04-2017, 03:32 AM.

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                    • Reduction of Unwanted Momentum within the Same Form

                      The two elbows twist up like wings (count one).

                      The two hands and elbows separate (count two).

                      The rear elbow starts to catch up with the front elbow at which time one's pivot chimes in (count three).

                      The elbows once twisted up stay at a single level in a perfect shot unlike an Ellie-bam but like a Beasley-bam.

                      Obviously, a lot else is going on, e.g., count one is also a complete unit turn. And count two is also a complete bent arm swan dive with upper bod held still. And count three also sees hitting arm gradually straighten from beginning to end.

                      A question I have had in all these Beasley-bams and Ellie-bams is whether the elbow continues its free-flying independence during the weight shifting long smooth pivot of the hips.

                      Probably, but I no longer worry about this, striving instead for perfect follow through in which the racket almost was thrown at the target (Beasley, Vines and Budge).

                      Note: In count two, when we say that the two elbows separate, we mean that they separate from each other. One moves forward smoothing the waters while the other moves back.

                      Unlike in an Ellsworth Vines forehand the hitting hand does not drop before it swings forward.
                      Last edited by bottle; 07-04-2017, 05:22 AM.

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                      • Hit Nothing but Ellie-bams and Federfores, one Basket of Each

                        But tried a few alternations of these shots too since I know that's something I'll be doing in actual play. The stroke scheme for the Ellie-bams in # 3655 seems good except that in count 2 the right arm may swim faster and farther than the left to bring it around more to a moderately in-close position behind the back.

                        Unless one wants to find more for the left arm to do, which I don't. Too much symmetry can sometimes be a mistake-- I know that from crew.

                        With the Federfores, a person is ignorant if he doesn't start racket twirl from end of mondo. Ignorant of the true purpose of mondo which is to start a stretch-shorten cycle.

                        Saw freedom of flight for arm while the twirl was going on. With hips pivot chiming in late. Hard not to have one's Federfores be influenced by all the Beasley-bam stuff.

                        Bounces for the most part stayed true to form. Ball occasionally however stayed low for a Federfore and came up for an Ellie-bam.

                        Can't wait for the day when people stop serving to my forehand.

                        Comment


                        • What are the Available Sources of Power when you are Trying to Hit a Forehand as Hard as you Can?

                          No no, don't do that, Bottle. So say sensible stalwarts.

                          No, I'm gonna do it. Rules were made to be broken by those who know them.

                          Pivot of the hips, that's a big one. How about "husking," which would be the reverse of scapular retraction? Could that be a legitimate source of power? I'll try it, combining it with the hips pivot that concludes every Beasley-bam, and every Ellie-bam.

                          And Ellsworth Vines is known to have had the hardest forehand in tennis history except for Pancho Segura's two-hander. So let's try and improve on Vines.

                          To get the benefit of added on husking, we need to do it from fully retracted scapulae, right? The two shoulder-blades need to be almost touching one another, no?

                          Where and when to do this? Count two. If one pushes bent connected arms back to physical limit while performing unit turn (count one), one ought to be able to keep the about-to-occur swing pretty level.

                          Count two: Scapular retraction on both sides of one's back. Pull the shoulders to separate the hands. Symmetry of the two arms has been restored.

                          Count three: Elbow swinging level first with leant over pivot and husking chiming in, not to mention one's elbow gradually straightening the whole way.

                          Here's Vines again in one of his Wimbledon finals 10th video down (http://www.britishpathe.com/workspac...is-Finals/full).

                          Does he husk? Perhaps a bit. But not as much as he would if he started from full scapular retraction.
                          Last edited by bottle; 07-06-2017, 02:46 AM.

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                          • The Most Insidious Aspect of Tennis Stroke Design

                            You get one that works. Then you change one little thing. The whole thing suddenly doesn't work.

                            The best remedy I know, in the Ellie-bam re-discovery case, is immediate return to the Beasley-bam if only for one or two strokes.

                            It could be, with these old fashioned shots, that keeping strings above one's wrist is everything.

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                            • The Idiot Forehand

                              This forehand doesn't call anybody an idiot by name. It implies it as it zips by him.

                              The critics of Ellsworth Vines had a field day because of his hit or miss forehand. Except for the four years when he was the number one player in the world.

                              In those four years they (the critics) looked almost as dopey as they actually were.

                              R-E-S-P-E-C-T. It's a song that later came out of Detroit.

                              "Dopey." One of the Seven Dwarves.
                              Last edited by bottle; 07-06-2017, 02:12 PM.

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                              • Latest Version of my Ellie-bam

                                looked really good in self-feed at Rouge Park, southwest Detroit down the river. I know I'm being personal here, the great criticism of me apparently, but I'm telling you, breaking a few rules by shifting the arm hoop toward rear fence as a part of unit turn leads to something entirely new. Now trying to touch the shoulderblades together does everything you used to do with your arms. Your back places both arms exactly where you want them, and the Zen is a little better now. The hitting arm, not having done much recently, feels free and loose.

                                I like the Tim Mayotte article very much except for its too many numbered lists, stuff we're supposed to memorize but probably shouldn't. The other thing is with all tennis players, playing pros, teaching pros and tennis writers: They simply are not open enough to interesting departure when it comes to stroke mechanics.

                                It's as if there is a consensus forehand which we all should have. Why? Is it particularly good? No, the great strokes have been more personal and individual.

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