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A New Year's Serve

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  • bottle
    replied
    Personal History Often Is The Best History

    Thanks for this tremendous bit of history. And for basic intelligence that will help me in the present series of my experiments. Right now, my goal is a heavy ball focussing on placement and the two serves (first and second) not appreciably different. When that tactic fails I've got soft stuff for surprise.

    Every time I look at the great clip

    I see something different and know this essential feature of life will continue. Right now I see the front heel not coming all the way down the way it does in my Talbert and Old book. It stays on the toes and pivots near to or at contact. It may not pivot much but it pivots.

    I found an old yellow paste it note of mine in the margins of the T&O book: "Don't shift any weight until ball changes direction." (Tom Stow, Don Budge in 1988 interviews)

    Also, I've been starting low with both knees bent. A healthful and good learning device, I think, but now I'm ready for a higher start.

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  • don_budge
    replied
    The Donald's Serve...

    Originally posted by bottle View Post
    Steve-- this should be nothing but fun, not "duty" or forced recollection or dancing with the stars.
    That's funny John...now that you mention it and thanks for asking. Very cool of you to ask. What I really remember was that it was really a solid ball. A heavy ball. No surprise there considering the blunderbuss he used as a racquet. But the most impressive thing about it was the placement. Sure he hit it good...at 58 years old with a huge wood racquet. But it was the placement that was so impressive. He put it in the corners or wherever he felt like putting it. His service games usually were won at love. Very methodically. He backed his serve up really well as you can imagine if you were lucky enough to get a return back. The backhand was what it was...reputedly the best shot in tennis in some reputable circles. His partner was the best female counselor at the camp at the time...her name was Connie something or other. They beat me and my partner Andy Berliner rather easily. I remember that too...way back in 1973.
    Last edited by don_budge; 09-27-2012, 10:46 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Steve-- this should be nothing but fun, not "duty" or forced recollection or dancing with the stars. (That's something I didn't succeed at: I did get Katharine Hepburn to feed me once, but dance with her? I think she would have bitten me in two first.) I just wonder what J. Donald's service ball did from bounce.

    Katharine Hepburn was always afraid of what I might write about her or her family (very positive things actually). Well, there was the one bad inset feature (twas a fold-in newspaper supplement) in The Middletown (Connecticut) Press in which the substitute editor, who was jealous, changed my every second "a" in Katharine to an "e". One of his lungs collapsed a short while afterward.

    Katharine Hepburn said she wanted to come back as a professional tennis player. That's why I always wonder when I see somebody like Laura Robson or Ana Ivanovic.
    Last edited by bottle; 09-27-2012, 08:22 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Good Old-Fashioned Notion Number Two

    Number One was creating a club sandwich in which the two pieces of bread were body segmentation one way and then the other. The filling is the double leg drive in between.

    Number Two, going into more detail about the filling, says to form one straight line up front leg and extended hitting arm-- the classic tip about firmness, strength and structure.

    To rephrase, just as hips screw front foot down, the body wriggles as upper body continues to wind back (in two different ways). Then the legs drive. Then the triceps fires. The second wriggle gets shoulders out of the way and the body to form the classic straight line.

    Well, if we call the two connected wriggles one system and "fire the extensors" a second, then there's powerful turn of the shoulders from the gut muscles as a third, and scapular retraction and adduction a fourth (late arching and releasing of the back).

    One through four happen all at once, you could say. Or you could say anything. The question is how well you'll do this.

    One complication is that legs coil and fire in two different directions. The hips press out toward the target and the parallel knees press off to the right.



    Steve: Would this serve bound high? What did the ball do on his second serve? Kick like his brother's? Katharine Hepburn's was a solid slice, I think (a long time ago, I realize). All I know for sure is that I was at the net and the ball came to me a lot for easy put-a-ways-- she held serve every time.
    Last edited by bottle; 09-27-2012, 05:46 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    A Good Old-Fashioned Notion

    Old-fashioned serves may have some good old-fashioned notions built into them, e.g., writer John M. Barnaby's assertion that the biggest effective push anyone can ever put on a tennis ball comes from jackknifing the hips backward and the shoulders forward right while doing everything else one does at contact.

    In the following clip of a Don Budge first serve, one can see exactly that.



    By working through the video with keyboard arrows one click at a time, one sees a leaning tower of Pisa get established, but toward the end of that establishment the hips going out toward the net, the shoulders retreating toward the recently departed back fence as if longing for it.

    The jackknife is getting cocked, in other words, the stick bending one way before it snaps the other. Between this cock and release the legs fully extend without leaving the ground.

    Slow clicking reveals upper body bowed forward even approaching parallelism to court before Donald Budge stands up no doubt to regain his customary aplomb and relaxed balance-- in this particular sequence. (In at least one other available sequence-- the Ed Vebell drawings-- he continues to bend over and only comes up later.)
    Last edited by bottle; 09-27-2012, 06:03 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Biggest Change to a Federfore in a Long Time

    Who says that hands must make the calculation of ball trajectory, height and ultimate location of contact? Outfielders from baseball. Here is a case, however, where with a small amount of imagination one can embed a spectrometer, barometer, chronometer and radar dish in front edge of one's leading forearm.

    That way one can push hands back a little farther during the initial unit turn, prepared to run while holding high arm position, and this will enable the slightest of racket tip drops to initiate the actual "backswing" when one is ready to hit the ball.

    Example: In a Federfore, perhaps like me, one used to have a two-part backswing consisting of a lifting of the racket tip and then extension or lengthening of the arm. The proposed change substitutes A) a slight drop of the racket tip and simultaneous pulling of elbow into the body for A) lift of the racket tip, which already will be accomplished (or maybe not) and put behind.

    Feel not logic is supposed to determine one's strokes. Well, the two may come together here. If one leads just a bit with elbow during the unit turn, one can perhaps achieve best, more closed waiting position for oneself-- a place from which elbow can retreat a bit toward body to achieve a characteristically Federian position without being as complicated as Roger Federer.

    Unless there is some implicit advantage to pivoting the racket tip up above elbow the way Roger does, one simply needs to design backward from elbow working in most comfortably toward the bod. Maybe we've improved on a good thing, maybe not. Depends on what works best.

    Immediate forehand position from the Chris Lewit Holy Book has both arms fully extended toward right fence all as part of the unit turn.

    My new comparable position has left arm almost fully extended but right arm significantly bent (which is about to change).

    Racket tip starts lower and more to the outside than Roger. The different preparations next become identical.

    Perhaps a choice as big as this has only to do with the inborn construction of one's arms.
    Last edited by bottle; 10-03-2012, 06:15 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Thanks!

    Wow, I didn't realize that these two serves of Don Budge had been placed in the archive! But I'll still put up the Ed Vebell drawings-- soon. The first video certainly does answer my questions: No, there is thrusting out of front hip and yes, there is thrusting from both legs, and no, the shoulders aren't bashing through contact-- in other words the leaning tower of Pisa isn't crashing yet, but is still, and that's why rear foot holds on its toes for so long. And if someone wants to try this basic pattern, they'd better establish their leaning tower soon enough for this stuff to happen.

    As far as this serve lengthening one's runway, I guess not, that's an internal matter. Might be true if the shoulders ARE permitted to bash through-- clearly an all wet idea however. But the different vector adds speed for me, and speed is what I need. I thought I needed better spin, but that was wrong, I had the spin but not the necessary speed to go with it. EVERYBODY was crushing their service returns. Conclusion: Serving more out front for a tall person can never be too inadvisable.

    One thing I haven't changed my mind about is that this is a serve much easier on somebody's legs. Because of the different rule, the servers back then didn't jump off of the court. And Pat Dougherty has suggested that when the big change occurred something may have been gained but something was lost. (Chest more open to the sky perhaps.)

    The rhythm certainly is different. WHEN the hips rotate forward is certainly different. And WHEN the legs push on the court. The ideas of hips rotating forward while shoulders are rotating backward seems cool. The action is pretty quick:



    The above front view of this serve shows with how much economy and physical ease it can be hit. But one can serve hard, too. I know because I've done it (though I still have a few more things to work out/in). Thanks again.

    I'm going to put the rear view here, too, just so I have them together:



    Note: Haven't succeeded in opening the lesson you sent but hope to today and will comment.
    Last edited by bottle; 09-26-2012, 05:18 AM.

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  • tennis_chiro
    replied
    You can trace your own drawings!!!

    Originally posted by bottle View Post
    I envy you that film. Is it gone, like my scanner? But we're getting a new printer with scanner, and I will put those Ed Vebell illustrations up here soon even if it means a trip to a shop where I may have a heated copyright argument with the clerk like the time I put a Lloyd Budge serve up here. I have to, because now I'm getting more into the intricacies of this course I chose. Already, I'm thinking that DB did not angulate, i.e, thrust his leading hip toward the net the way everybody, myself included, all are used to doing nowadays. No archer's bow in other words! Well, at least not in the Ed Vebell drawings. Which might be feeble drawings for all I know. If you heard a bow twang from next to you when J. Donald was serving in doubles that would be the last word.

    Another mind-blowing thing: He's up on on rear toes for three of the eight frames. A Talbert and Old caption has him throwing body forward, but that might suggest to an impressionable person that body hurls through the ball and I don't think so. Everything including late force from double leg extension seems to go up a very straight, still track. As I tried to suggest, both feet are pretty close together, which would help in that, the one foot thrusting from flat, the rear from toes. It's just that the straight track is slanted forward.

    All of it will make more sense when the drawings are up-- I agree. Then, as part of the eyewitness program, I hope you'll tell what you know.
    Here from Tennisplayer's own Stroke Archive:



    Just trace out a few frames. Pretty good looking motion to me. Of course, that left foot stays on the ground until contact and Budge is a little more bent over at the waist than a Gonzales

    Here's Gonzales:



    don

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  • bottle
    replied
    I envy you that film. Is it gone, like my scanner? But we're getting a new printer with scanner, and I will put those Ed Vebell illustrations up here soon even if it means a trip to a shop where I may have a heated copyright argument with the clerk like the time I put a Lloyd Budge serve up here. I have to, because now I'm getting more into the intricacies of this course I chose. Already, I'm thinking that DB did not angulate, i.e, thrust his leading hip toward the net the way everybody, myself included, all are used to doing nowadays. No archer's bow in other words! Well, at least not in the Ed Vebell drawings. Which might be feeble drawings for all I know. If you heard a bow twang from next to you when J. Donald was serving in doubles that would be the last word.

    Another mind-blowing thing: He's up on on rear toes for three of the eight frames. A Talbert and Old caption has him throwing body forward, but that might suggest to an impressionable person that body hurls through the ball and I don't think so. Everything including late force from double leg extension seems to go up a very straight, still track. As I tried to suggest, both feet are pretty close together, which would help in that, the one foot thrusting from flat, the rear from toes. It's just that the straight track is slanted forward.

    All of it will make more sense when the drawings are up-- I agree. Then, as part of the eyewitness program, I hope you'll tell what you know.
    Last edited by bottle; 09-25-2012, 11:09 AM.

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  • don_budge
    replied
    Pictures please...

    Hello John...any possibility of posting those drawings that you are talking about. I know that serve quite well. I had some old 8mm film that I had copied to VCR tape with me playing doubles with the old boy. I call him that because he was my age when I played doubles with him. Great memory! He was such a good guy.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Feet Not Far Apart

    The feet, not far apart, are one behind the other, i.e., are lined up toward the target in the old "booming" serve of Don Budge.

    How much then did he rock his head and shoulders backward as if he was the little guy Pancho Segura? Only a bit. But the rocking forward is considerable and comes from the feet.

    Rear foot starts flat. Minimal backward hips turn lifts the front heel. Minimal forward hips turn lowers the same heel as rear heel starts to rise.

    You never will see this in a more modern serve with toss overhead and longitudinal energy going upward, not forward and upward.

    In other respects there are more similarities than differences, e.g., one needs to be tall (and still and firm) at contact to generate topspin.

    After contact the shoulders plunge farther ahead of the ass. Thus trailing foot is pulled ahead naturally. Who wants to perform big counterbalanced hops up and down on a gimpy left leg? And are gimpy left legs common in modern tennis? Yes.

    Is there (or should there be) bowing/jackknifing from the hips to complete the forward action? Well, there could be. The old drawings however show left heel rising for a second time-- a different kind of pitching forward.
    Last edited by bottle; 09-25-2012, 06:31 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Rotorded Servers of the World-- Listen Up

    You don't have to unite, but you do have to stop being retarded besides rotorded.

    The J. Donald Budge serve in my case only comes around once every twenty years. It is a planet with a ten-year orbit. Somehow I missed it ten years ago.

    These Michael Jordan serves that everybody has depend on a long runway. Well, all serves depend on a long runway.

    JUST TOSS THE BALL TWO FEET IN FRONT OF THE BASELINE.

    You won't bang the ball down from as high. You won't be a Federer turning himself into a Karlovic.

    But a good baseball pitcher gets good heat on the ball. And he doesn't spring his body up into the sky. No, he hurls it toward the plate.

    I do wonder why the eight Ed Vebell drawings of the Budge serve in THE GAME OF SINGLES IN TENNIS by Talbert and Old don't include racket-down-in-the-slot position.

    Could it be that J. Donald Budge was ROTORDED?

    Probably not. But whatever he was, he had a long runway, and you can have a long runway, too.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Low, Hissy, Short-angled

    No, no-- Arthur had a common sense strategy before the final and the smooth technique to carry it out and it wasn't his head meditating under the towel: "Keep the ball low with spin and make him run the farthest possible distance at all times." Su-wei used a bit of this-- sparingly but tellingly-- as well. I did feel sorry for Laura if not for her coach, but who could feel sorry for Jimmy back at that time? He was number one in the world in tennis and number two in arrogance or was he number one there, too? Outcome is always determined by both players, and the chink in the armor of Jimmy's game had been found. I'll bet that Aaron Krickstein enjoys watching that video: I know that I still do, maybe because I myself was able to carry off that strategy against a far superior player just once in my life, a Mr. Callahan. Got a pretty good play on the first sports page of the Winchester (Virginia) Star. Unfortunately, I had to play Mr. Callahan just two days later in another division of the same tournament.
    Last edited by bottle; 09-24-2012, 07:24 AM.

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  • stotty
    replied
    Originally posted by bottle View Post

    Hey, Stotty over there in Great Britain. If you see Laura Robson, please tell her that when things aren't perfect, to at least try the opposite of what she's been doing. And to work on special put-a-ways of slow slice saves by her opponent. And teach her some better desperation slice herself, okay? It's depressing to watch someone-- anyone-- get to a ball three inches off the court a mile away and then hit a sand wedge so it pops up. Could you teach her to cross the ball instead and keep it low?

    Jimmy Connor's failure to cross the ball was how Arthur Ashe exploited him in their famous Wimbledon final according to our distinguished American tennis writer John M. Barnaby.
    Given the chance, I would do my best with Laura, but Laura, like many women on the tour, has just the one game...no game B.

    I felt the reason Connors lost to Ashe is because he was still attached to his mother's apron. That final, pipped only by Nastase's loss to Stan Smith, was the worst result in Wimbledon history. Jimmy was head and shoulders better than anyone at that time. Everyone goes on about Ashe being the wonderful, meditating tactician....but Jimmy beat himself that day...he should have won three straight.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Open Racket, Chop; Laura Robson in China

    So why didn't I open up for my chops for thirty years? Because I was in love with meat cleavers. Any time I was ready to chop I aimed the cleaver's edge straight down. Made perfect sense to me.

    All wrong. As Tom Avery explains in one of his videos, the steeper the downward path of the racket, the more you need to have opened it.

    But did I make the change and practice this? Was on the schedule. But, at the tennis social, my pickup partner and I faced two pretty good opponents. Except one of them had a weak second serve. And here it came. I chopped.

    I'd never hit this new chop in all my life. Zing. The ball died in a place uninhabited by all four players. Clean winner. Next second serve from same guy I did the same thing.

    My partner wanted to know how I did it. "Open more, chop," I explained. But now I'd externalized the shot and so forgot to try it again the rest of the evening.

    Exactly like Laura Robson, 18, attempting one moonball in her first circuit singles final. ("SU-WEI BEATS LAURA ROBSON IN THREE CLOSE SETS TO WIN IN GUANGZHOU.") Su-wei, a line drive hitter herself, made a ue. But Laura never remembered to try another moonball.

    Hey, Stotty over there in Great Britain. If you see Laura Robson, please tell her that when things aren't perfect, to at least try the opposite of what she's been doing. And to work on special put-a-ways of slow slice saves by her opponent. And teach her some better desperation slice herself, okay? It's depressing to watch someone-- anyone-- get to a ball three inches off the court a mile away and then hit a sand wedge so it pops up. Could you teach her to cross the ball instead and keep it low?

    Jimmy Connor's failure to cross the ball was how Arthur Ashe exploited him in their famous Wimbledon final according to our distinguished American tennis writer John M. Barnaby.
    Last edited by bottle; 09-23-2012, 05:39 AM.

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