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A New Year's Serve

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  • bottle
    replied
    Pause Serve vs. Continuous Serve

    Another case of Dr. Brian Gordon's empirical knowledge having application (instant or almost instant) for some player striving to improve his serve.

    Note well that the server who sees the big improvement (suddenly he is holding serve at love whether his partner is at net where he belongs or is staying back) may have been working on his big challenge for a very, very long time.

    Note also that the crucial information the aspirant needs is apt to come from an offhand remark directed at somebody other than himself.

    We follow the Buckminster Fuller model here. Fuller used to shut his eyes and talk for an hour or three. He didn't leave much time for questions. You listened if you knew how to listen and took home what you could.

    Brian Gordon is nothing like that. He directs to people by name all the time. But he could be describing some movie he just saw and the janitor sweeping up the popcorn might overhear something that would vastly improve his serve.

    So Brian opined that palm down serving and continuous motion are closely associated, and that closer to squared palm serves are associated with a slight slow-down or pause.

    It's always been true but I can't recall anybody saying this before. (I include myself in the generality.)

    My serve now consists of three counts. 1) use bod and tossing arm to take it (ta) to skunk tail with hitting arm having just finally bent and body bowed with weight distributed on both feet. 2) use leftward lean to take head, bod and both arms slightly toward side fence. 3) serve.
    Last edited by bottle; 10-20-2018, 01:18 PM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    How much can you dance before your partner serves before a paddy wagon arrives to take you off to the funny farm?

    I waltz, fox trot, swing, tango, do some quick quick slow, some slow slow quick quick, some slow quick quick, double-beat swing, skips, a lot of rocksteps and other changes of direction.

    Have temporarily forgotten my rumba and salsa, but what does that matter? The worse and more irregular the steps, the better so long as you can poach off of them.

    If a dance partner can't follow you, neither can a doubles opponent.

    One thing I noticed in a first evening of skating around the court is that no one tried a pass down the line or at least not one that stayed in.

    Is there a rule about any of this in tennis? I'll ask my phone now.

    "Is there a rule in tennis about too much dancing around the court before your partner serves?"

    blakesq, professional, who lives inside my phone, says, "Jumping jack motion is a hindrance, call the hindrance and take the point. Changing position is not a hindrance."

    Yes, but that applies to somebody on the other side of the net. My question still is unanswered.

    NTRPolice: "The net person must remain 'still.' That is an actual rule, but no one follows it."

    Dartagnan64 to blakesq: "Some reasons the net player has to move is: 1. keep his legs warm. 2. anticipating a lob. 3. fake poach. 4. anticipating a drop shot."

    blakesq: "No, that only applies for the server's partner. The receiver's partner is at least 3 hits away from touching a ball, so any movement during a server's toss can only be considered a distraction."
    Last edited by bottle; 10-20-2018, 02:39 PM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Sway at the Top

    Try positing one's leftward lean at top of the serve. That means downtogether uptogether takes ta to pointing at highest spot in the sky, which vertical position is helped through bowing bod, and lifted ha has just bent forearm upward too.

    The toss arm ta will move a small amount more beyond TDC or top dead center or high noon just as if you were Roger Federer.

    But, will this last movement by ta consist of more independence from the shoulder? No, ta has been independent enough. Shoulder and ta get fixed together now. It's an idea, and not all ideas are bad.

    The bod will tock the ta from 12 to 11:30 . Envision yourself slightly leaning whole bod and arms to side to turn your nose and mouth upward. Or Caroline Wozniacki preparing to receive her worm.
    Last edited by bottle; 10-19-2018, 09:00 PM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Serve as a Sentence Written by Thomas Wolfe, the American Novelist

    Wolfe wrote long sentences that were very complex but rather comfortable and well balanced too, reflecting first rate observation and thought so that, for instance, after one good reading of LOOK HOMEWARD, ANGEL, we can never forget Eugene Gant's parents for the rest of our lives.

    Thomas Wolfe is not to be confused with Tom Wolfe, the more recent journalist-novelist, who started his essay THE KANDY-KOLORED TANGERINE FLAKE BABY with one word repeated over and over to form a paragraph suggesting a wheel in Las Vegas: "Hernia hernia hernia hernia hernia hernia hernia hernia..."

    One could also think of a tennis serve as a very long and complicated sentence that one is trying to frame in a language other than one's own.

    A reasonable approach to that challenge would be to dwell on unfamiliar parts, not on what one already knows, before putting the whole thing together.

    To squawk that everybody is working on the wrong part of the serve, not on the perfect opposition of legs drive and racket drop, is ridiculous.

    For every part of the serve must be learned and mastered for the thing to work at all, and every little thing no matter where placed affects everything else.

    In regard to respective functions of ta and ha, so different now, we can review our goal of better orientation toward the sky through keeping ta up, and ask if there is any other way to achieve this goal other than vary the simultaneous speeds of the two arms.

    There is of course.

    Just pause or slow ha someplace so that ta gets to TDC sooner and therefore has more time to hold? That's one way.

    Why be more specific than that, especially if one has found some other way? One method or another plays with the ha and ta combination until drive of the legs and racket fall are in perfect conflict to perform a maximum elastic stretch.

    But to pretend that you may not have to work on other parts of the serve as well sounds like foolish romanticism, calumny. affectation!

    Sorry Rick Macci. Sorry, Peter Freeman building up to Tennis Con 2. Peter attributed the statement about "nobody working on the right part of the serve" to Rick.
    Last edited by bottle; 10-19-2018, 08:50 PM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Two-inch Grizzly Swipe?

    What is the length of abducted adduction of your bent elbow that produces the most forcible wet towel crack of your arm?

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  • bottle
    replied
    The discussion one encounters in tennis teaching circles over keeping one's ta up is too much about just that, keeping ta up.

    Just a slight raise of consciousness could lead one to get ta up sooner. A ta that is up sooner can more easily stay up for longer, no?

    I've moved on from thinking that ta and ha, following the old service prescription of downtogether uptogether, go up the same distance.

    Recently I've lifted ta four feet in an arc while lifting ha two feet straight up from way back behind one, a position which creates height all on its own.

    This brought improvement to the serve, which I view as a cycle that must be perfect at all points but most important be perfect in its totality.

    I am discussing just one part of the serve right now with no obligation to discuss any other.

    Two to one ratio, it seems to me, could refer only to the distance the two arms rise.

    But how about speed ratio between them?

    Tomorrow I'll try for 2 to 1 distance ratio with 3 to 1 speed ratio.
    Last edited by bottle; 10-18-2018, 08:57 PM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Originally posted by stotty View Post
    We get a reasonable view of Don Budge's thumb position here:

    https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...l?DBBHRear.mov
    Try to see this venerable video with new eyes? Look at how low the backswing is. And remember how Budge told people just to swing, not swipe at the ball. Then if you are like me with depression in the wrist, realize what a big change of pitch there is between straight wrist or depressed/concave wrist viewed from your eyes which are higher. With straight wrist but thumb still on a diagonal behind the shot, the ball should fly more to the right. Need of early roll of upper arm to square racket will have been done away with and the shot simplified? How many times has one tried to open oneself to Don Budge's backhand influence? Is it just because of the shot's fame or is there something substantial and usable here? One may be doing something crucial now that one wasn't before? So, is another basic imitation worth a new try?
    Last edited by bottle; 10-19-2018, 05:34 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Gigi Fernandez Poacher's Triangle as Demonstrated by Peter Freeman at Tennis Con 2

    There seems no doubt that most terminators at the net don't terminate enough because they aren't in early movement in weird and varied ways.

    The little steps that Freeman uses in each leg of a triangle look very nice and no doubt should be emulated some of the time.

    But they suggest another more shrink-wrapped movement also to try if you know how to dance the Fox Trot box step.

    Squish it at its baseline side to form the rear point of the triangle.

    Mirror your server-partner's ball placement with your own bod placement working from this hopefully conditioned pattern (how many dance lessons did you take?).

    Left right skip onto right foot to cover the left alley.

    Box step broadly to the right and keep going to poach in the middle.

    Improvise a backhand volley when ball comes straight at you.

    P.S. The alley BHV I just suggested is for a slow oncoming ball. Take fewer steps or no step most of the time. The oncoming ball is usually fast and very soon.
    Last edited by bottle; 10-18-2018, 08:01 PM.

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  • stotty
    replied
    We get a reasonable view of Don Budge's thumb position here:

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  • bottle
    replied
    The "L" Finish on the Backhand

    Happens on page 183 of SECRETS OF A TRUE TENNIS MASTER by Edward Weiss. The text there is written for both one hand and two hand backhands.

    "Finishing with an 'L' on the backhand groundstroke will help your stroke because it prevents the wrist(s) of the racket arm(s) from collapsing. If the player finishes with the racket butt closer to the side wall on the backhand finish, the 'L' will be a slightly tilted 'L'."

    A photo of a one hander's finish reveals that her arm is slightly bent, her hand about even with her right eye.

    Me, I'm told I have a good one hander, but I feel the wrist is too stiff, both concave and locked when I look down. I'll try something different (again!) this morning, a straight wrist, which Is going to be either better or worse. (I'm a guy who uses a J. Donald Budge thumb brace rather than a thumb wrap.)

    Playing with the three guys I am about to play with will be a pleasure. But conducting the experiment, particularly in the warmup, will be a pleasure all by itself, and may even get my mind off of the competition so that I then compete better. One never knows.
    Last edited by bottle; 10-18-2018, 03:00 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Upward Inward Lift of Coiled Elbow Must Feel Powerful-- No?

    That is why I suggested a grizzly bear swipe.

    But the powerful motion needs to be light and quick to snap arm straight.

    Of extreme interest, in my view, is when it happens or where begins, where ends, and how long or short it is.

    My thought right now: Starts with elbow on line with the clavicles. Ends with 100 degrees at the armpit.

    Note: the powerful feel imagined and referenced here can only happen while one mimes and slows down various parts in the .1 second upward linkage in order to learn them. The whole linkage put together will have a separate feel or "no feel." Who among people who haven't mastered this yet can really know how it will feel? The closest one can get-- in the meantime-- is talk to somebody already there, i.e, somebody with a corker of a serve? And somebody also good at describing the feel of ANYTHING? Such a rare corker possessing person could maybe give us the helpful cue we need? To add to his rarity even more, he would be unselfish enough to want to pull others onto his boat so as to join him.
    Last edited by bottle; 10-18-2018, 02:36 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Progressions of Certain Thought in the Development of a Kramer Influenced Serve

    1) Downtogether uptogether suggests that both arms go up an equal amount.

    2) Revised to ta rising twice as far.

    3) Jack Kramer and Pancho Gonzalez spent a lot of time together. And both had horizontal dimension built into their service wind-up despite the difference in how it looked.

    4) Downtogether uptogether form suggests a narrow gorge.

    5) Pyrimidal cone is a more effective image, wide at the base and coming to a point at contact (the top).

    6) Body can adjust itself so that ta ends pointing straight up. Welby Van Horn in Ed Weiss's book even suggests pointing at the sky with one's index finger.

    7) Roger Federer goes slightly beyond that.

    8) A major sin would be to go less than that.
    Last edited by bottle; 10-17-2018, 05:13 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Admittedly, the Process by which I Reach a Service Conclusion can be Extremely Painful

    It is, most simply, try and try-- you'll succeed at last.

    But I read too. And watch videos. And listen. And watch good servers through the fence. And participate in tennis conversations.

    And look for "teachable moments."

    A most extraordinary one occurred at our last indoor tennis social: each Friday night session consists of three sets with different partners then a Spanish dinner. Spanish in that it is fashionably late. Then if you want you can play one more set with a partner of your own choosing.

    Not me. I'm old. I don't play after dinner.

    My middle partner was Aziz, a teaching pro I got to play with once last year. The score: We won 6-0 . The score this year: We won 6-0 .

    But one of our opponents couldn't serve. All of his serves went into the net. I was tempted to tell him to serve at mid-ceiling rather than at the bottom of the net. On the other hand I thought it would be cool if we won. And the guy appeared to have a powerful throw, might even be a pitcher in baseball. If the serves start going in, I reasoned, they could be a problem for me. Besides, I was playing with an excellent teaching pro. Let him do any talking and be the one to give advice.

    Aziz did, finally, give the advice. And the serves did begin to go in. I didn't hear what Aziz said but can imagine it.

    For the guy's toss arm (ta) went up no higher than the point where he released the ball.

    He thought a service motion directs out, not up.
    Last edited by bottle; 10-17-2018, 04:33 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Held Serve this Morning in Doubles when Tried to Apply New Ideas to my Normal Serve

    Lost Serve
    when tried to apply same ideas to a rear-foot serve with front knee straightening late.
    Is there a lesson in this? Certainly put ball in court in the second case, but ball after the bounce was just not as effective. Took several rounds of holds before I even realized what I was doing (going with a version of the serve I used all summer).
    Last edited by bottle; 10-16-2018, 06:45 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Grizzly Bear Swipe? Forearm a Sickle Bar? Upward Length of Toss Arm Motion Modified to Four Feet instead of Three? And Going to 12 o'clock and then 11:30 as Hit Arm Bends?

    Besides these notions, I'm trying to find the sensory image that best expresses adduction (a shove of arm to inside) combined with abduction (raising of arm to prescribed 100 degrees at the armpit) combined with twist of torso on a forward axis tilted toward left fence post on other side of the net.

    One needs enough power from this to whip passive arm straight.

    The discussion is about personal outcome, i.e., how high and far one's serve will bound.

    At the Friday night tennis social, I got one to bounce cleanly over the head of a girl but it hit a divot in the clay.

    I seek serves that bounce that high every time I attempt one.

    On flexion of wrist to neutral (straight): That seems the percentage thing to do. But there are effective servers who continue to flex after the scrape. More uninhibited flexion? Greater risk of spoiling the serve by pushing the ball? Too challenging a degree of precision for most players?
    Last edited by bottle; 10-16-2018, 06:12 AM.

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