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  • Curious Unweighting



    This is just one forehand, probably not typical, but what can its late unweighting and leg drive tell us about distribution or anything else in our potential McEnrueful bag of tricks?

    The chi-chi noise that John McEnroe's sneakers (or sneaker) make is late as is completion of his point-across-by-opposite-hand.

    Shoulders are still turning backward at a time when other players are doing a breast stroke or swan dive.

    For whatever the reason, his feet do last instant re-adjustment hence the noise, and then he seems to drive off both of them.

    The loading here reminds me of a jet turn on long skis I was lucky enough to learn from an instructor in the French Alps near Megeve at Crest Voland. In that one, you bent your upper body in the direction you wanted to go then suddenly compressed both knees.

    Nothing like that taking of body angle occurs here to readjust the feet. I therefore vote for the late point-across-by-opposite-hand.

    Ditditditscratchhit.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-12-2015, 04:18 AM.

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    • Paralysis by Not Enough Analysis



      He already is in the semi-open stance and almost perfect location from which he wants to hit the ball.

      He compresses both knees, which act by its bottom has started the turn.

      The racket has gone down and started up. But by the time it goes up his body has gone up, i.e., both legs have slightly extended in tandem with the racket. This first extension lifts both feet off the court and slightly rearranges them thus causing the chi-chi sound.

      Now the knees bend for a second time. The racket goes up and down.

      The hit is a solid combination of double leg drive and body whirl.

      This is a John McEnroe forehand as never imagined before, at least by me, with immediate implication for continued development of my McEnrueful.

      One astounding feature is that the unit turn involves the complete rearrangement of both feet.

      The cornerstone is two different compressions of the knees.

      This corresponds to the micro-bopping in the kind of jitterbug that some dancers do only here with both feet instead of one.

      The small moves are so fast that a 75-year old might not be able to do them, not at least until he gets relaxed. A younger person can do them once he knows what he is trying to do.

      Time now to peruse other JM videos to look for the same double compression interlaced with intricate footwork.

      Note: I don't think anyone has taken a full stab at explaining what is going on in the undercarriage of videos at Tennis Player. If someone else tells what they know I will tell what I know.
      Last edited by bottle; 11-13-2015, 07:05 AM.

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      • Corn Beef with Hash

        I disbelieve almost everything I've ever read on the John McEnroe forehand while musing-- arrogantly perhaps-- that I have earned this disbelief, i.e., did the necessary first-hand research for arriving at this viewpoint.

        Can others make such a claim? I doubt it. But if they do, go ahead and shoot me although I realize this is a dangerous thing to say in a society more full of guns than human beings.

        In his autobiography, John McEnroe stresses the importance to his game of his naturally strong legs. But you won't see much up-and-down in a forehand such as this one (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...tLevelRear.mov).

        You will see said up-and-down in this one (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelRear1.mov).

        Let's examine the up-and-down one (and up again and down again) by clicking under the video in the grey line along which the rectangular pointer rides. First we accept a reality of the new age: We have a cursor and a pointer or free will and fate.

        Having clicked on the grey line which click brought the pointer to it on a run, we next push down any one of the four arrow buttons on our computer keyboard.

        A liquid blue line suddenly frames our work. Now we are ready to rock and roll.

        Starting at left end of the blue frame, push down the right arrow again and again. You will see that the pointer develops three hash marks after 12 clicks, holds them for 4 clicks, removes them for the next 12 clicks. All this is for reference.

        To live in the now, simply fool around by repeatedly pushing the left and right arrow buttons to see what happens.

        Click on circle to run the video and clear its works and start at left edge all over again. By the time the hash marks first appear, John McEnroe has done most of a complete split-step without committing himself.

        During the 4 clicks of hash marks present, John McEnroe completes the split-step by unweighting more but still has not committed himself.

        In the next 12 clicks of no hash marks, JM has not only turned toward his forehand but extended his legs and inchwormed his inside foot across a bit.

        In the next 4 clicks of hash marks, JM has replaced his outside foot farther toward side fence and lifted his racket. Did racket start up as hips started up? Yes.

        In the next 12 clicks of no hash marks a pretty wild thing happened. The racket continues up as his knees re-compress. If JM reads this, he will never ever win another Plowshares event.

        I don't care. This is for me, not him, and I plan to forget this post quickly, well at least by the tennis social tonight. In the 4 clicks with hash marks, the outside leg starts driving upward. The right leg is more of a passive outrigger. His left hip is going upward while his racket goes down. How could that be? He was supposed to be solid at this point? But he is solid. It is his shoulders that adopt a backward slant. That is how the racket goes down.

        In the next 12 clicks-- hashless-- JM hits the ball. This is the business (bidnis) part of the stroke. The outside leg drives up and into the air (while staying slightly bent). The body whirls. The shoulders bank to become level. The racket c-a-a-a-r-r-r-r-ies the ball.

        In the next 4 clicks (with hash) the hitting shoulder banks slightly above level. The racket slams over toward side fence. The feet, having left the ground, re-arrange into the shot.

        In the next 12 clicks (hashless) the racket and inside knee come down together into a low crouch for spring toward center of the court.
        Last edited by bottle; 11-13-2015, 07:18 AM.

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        • Continued

          To further compare the two videos in the previous post: In the running forehand the elbow is natural and slightly away from the body. In the up-and-down forehand (where JM had more time to burn), the elbow is in close brushing the body. If racket head continues up while knees go down, the arm then is twisting or "keying" the racket up, not lifting it.

          So: the knees go down as the racket goes up. The knees go up as the racket goes down.

          This sounds as if the elbow is taking a solo, but it isn't. It is firmly connected (to body) through every bit of the whole cycle right up to contact.

          Clicking on round circle to play the up-and-down video does not reveal the amount of backward shoulders slant discoverable once one creates a blue frame. There is in this stroke a lot of the aeronautical banking that Welby Van Horne alludes to in the Ed Weiss book SECRETS OF A TRUE TENNIS MASTER.

          Not all of John McEnroe's rotational energy goes into horizontal body whirl as in his running forehand (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...tLevelRear.mov). That energy, in fact, is split between horizontal and diagonal twist. The hitting shoulder hauls upward as well as comes around (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelRear4.mov).

          Perhaps a start to learning this lies in re-conceiving the John McEnroe forehand from straight back to small loop that occurs during the transition from knee compression to knee extension. The racket keys up then drops from the two shoulders adopting their backward slant. Which doesn't last long or at all. The back shoulder hauls immediately upward toward contact besides coming around.

          This could be the time to consider Tom Okker's comment that recreational players don't use enough time once they have come into correct position for hitting a ground stroke. Everybody knows that Justine Henin's or John McEnroe's footwork is perfect due to its economy. And this economy leads to more time for getting off some shot. One needs, in present case, to have bought enough time so that one can both slope and unslope the shoulders during a single leg drive.

          Remember Michael Jordan's readjustments in mid-air. And that John McEnroe played lots of basketball. I know a guy from the Bronx who did it with him.
          Last edited by bottle; 11-14-2015, 08:02 AM.

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          • Paralysis by Not Enough Analysis 2

            You as tennis player can speak about paralysis by analysis all you want. You can say that tennis is learned by feel not logic. But I say paralysis by not enough analysis is just as real.

            The discussion means more when one has a worthy stroke development project underway. I hit some good semi-open McEnruefuls in doubles last night but want to nail them down, i.e., make them accurate, consistent and repeatable.

            Could one put training wheels on this project? A first suggestion: In self-feed alternate neutral shots (left right left) with semi-open (right left right) until they both go in looking good every time.

            In the neutral shots skip straight toward the ball, keeping your head still. In the semi-open shots use same down-and-up (as it refers to racket path) with human head very still during the "down." Then the fun begins. On up the knees go down. The knees then go up as the turning shoulders slope and unslope.

            Elbow to start and stay slightly out from body in both shots; slope and unslope also to be a feature of both. Slope is what takes the racket down before the hit. All strokes to be hit in a rhythm of no more than two parts.

            Duration of shot production may seem longer for semi-open. Departing ball may seem lighter as well. This nevertheless is my current kick.
            Last edited by bottle; 11-14-2015, 11:19 AM.

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            • Add a Third Shot to the Mix

              In seniors doubles I've noticed that most of the players stand still like sphinxes waiting for the ball to come to them.

              To rebel against this, I adopt the LRL and RLR shots described in the previous post. And add a third, semi-open but hit about half the time with flat left foot into which the hips revolve.

              That leaves three different shots to be alternated through an entire session of self-feed:

              1) Skip toward ball in as square a final step as possible. Rotate hips into a flat left foot blending into small adjustment foot re-arrangement at end.

              2) Hit similar shot from semi-open with or without adjustment step.

              3) Hit the spinnier shot produced by more verticality of body movement as described in the previous post.

              1) and 2) are flatter versions of the same shot (a McEnrueful) and 2) may be hit from either foot.

              3) spinnier, is a bit harder to produce. That is why all three shots should be practiced together in self-feed to produce equal availability. Then take them to the next level (ball machine, simple hit with partner, doubles or singles competition).

              Add in see see and looped forehand (both hit with stronger grips) for full forehand orchestration.
              Last edited by bottle; 11-15-2015, 06:44 AM.

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              • Composite Grip See See

                Work on making this a LRL shot. With a big adjustment step by right foot at the end starting before contact. John M. Barnaby: "As the shot is made the striker pivots sharply so he is actually facing crosscourt at the conclusion of the swing and his right leg has walked completely around the ball, thus turning it decisively to the left at the last minute."

                This is very precise description. The shot it is meant to elicit must also be precise. The shoulders face crosscourt "at the conclusion of the swing," not at contact. At contact, during the beginning of the sharp pivot, the shoulders are still quite closed. This enables the rather open racket to close rather than open more as the elbow greases past the body.

                The three steps of LRL can be very short in best case scenario. Further, one can make the first step partial rather than to directly in front of the right foot as in the most basic form of solid McEnrueful deep hit. One can make this shortcut but should one? Deception will be lost but torture gained.

                Whatever one's choice, one foregoes one's usual practice of rotating hips into left foot held flat. All trust is placed on the diagonal adjustment step to help bring the hips around.

                Every bit of the scheme must contribute to final objective of an almost but not quite cramped shot. With sloping of the shoulders to bring racket down to occur as in every other form of McEnrueful. Which means that shoulder will bank up as part of the light brush.

                Now to try the shot, which has to work, it seems to me-- always a dangerous thought.
                Attached Files
                Last edited by bottle; 11-16-2015, 06:52 AM.

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                • Report

                  Didn't work for me, in actual play. Some earlier ideas for see see developed and reported in this forum appear to be more easily produced. Composite grip see see as reported now might have the potential to become good in time, but the idea of moving adjustment foot while hitting this particular shot-- one of the more demanding of all shots-- is not for me personally and I'm grateful to know that.
                  Last edited by bottle; 11-17-2015, 09:24 AM.

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                  • Alternative Experiment (and What isn't an Experiment in Tennis)

                    Grip for this see see: bent thumb on Choctaw Ridge (1.5). Elbow: in close to body on level backswing then goes outside of ball to produce roundabout arm swing. Forearm: rolls racket up to form brush. Feet: are arranged however they must be to make shot. Body rotation: is non-existent or concluded before the arm swing.

                    Second half of experiment: Get rid of forearm brush just to see if that one moving part can be removed. Knees could unbend for substitute brush.

                    Am I obsessed with this shot? Of course. Will try anything, even ordinary mechanics, until I get what I want.

                    To keep Nick Wheatley influenced 2-part rhythm one could cut normal backward and forward body rotations in half. The limited backward body rotation and the right-angled keying of the arm could then be simultaneous. The forward swing though a single piece could then consist of body first arm second.
                    Last edited by bottle; 11-17-2015, 10:16 AM.

                    Comment


                    • No, Try This Instead

                      This much the same: Thumb bent with pad on Choctaw Ridge (1.5), which is as sharp as the crest of a miniature house, an A-frame. I had one in which to write, my ex another in which to paint. We weren't married yet. The two skinny A-frames were side by side on the bank of a narrow creek with dolphins swimming past. We were artists in a small scientific community at Middle Place, Ossabaw Island, Georgia.

                      Why did we have such a good deal? Because I had been to the island the year before staying at the artist colony five miles away. Every day I would write for four hours, make myself lunch, then ride a bike to Middle Place, split wood, then ride back.

                      The scientists liked that. They liked to stay warm at night. And they weren't good at splitting wood.

                      I think it important to stress the sharpness of the crests of those A-frames. Just as one should stress the sharpness of each pointy ridge on the handle of a tennis racket.

                      I have already tried to improve on the abstraction of most grip change systems. My bent thumb is always on some ridge. The only question is which ridge. I've got to feel the sharpness of it in the end of my thumb.

                      So we've got the right grip. Now we key the racket to the right with elbow held in to the body and the two halves of the arm held perpendicular to one another and the wrist held straight. That is a good backswing if it is smooth and controlled.

                      But we need a tennis tip now, a kinesthetic cue that is going to make the see see work once and for all. Predictably perhaps the cue lies in the thumb.

                      Elbow stayed in for the backswing but will be permitted to go naturally out now on the foreswing. The precise directions it goes out will prove quite crucial to a see see but we nevertheless do not wish to be self-conscious about this. Thumb therefore and not elbow or brain gets the controlling job.

                      Level racket sweeps back. The elbow now releases to sweep the strings forward and slightly upward. But thinking about the elbow is a mistake. It is the thumb tip that sweeps toward the target and ends pointing at left fence.

                      Just a smidge of racket roll took place. Use too much and stability is gone. Same with body whirl-- use none or a little but not a lot.

                      When I first tried this shot in self-feed I found that keying racket back far enough to feel a stretch-- with elbow held in-- was essential to getting the racket tip sufficiently around and with proper acceleration when going the other way.
                      Last edited by bottle; 11-19-2015, 03:43 AM.

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                      • Bumblebee Backhand

                        It's a one-hander in which the syllables of bumblebee replace the syllables of bumpety-bump for perfect footwork.

                        "bum" is the flying grip change that suddenly puts the racket up and around and behind one's neck.

                        "ble" is the noise of right toes hitting the court directly in front of left foot as the two hands on the racket go into their tug o' war.

                        "bee" is the step-out and hips turn that make the thing work, i.e., "pollinate," a tri-syllabic word which now can be alternated with "bumblebee," a creature after all whose distinct vibration is especially good for the task at hand.

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                        • Five One Hand Backhands in a Row

                          Bumblebee....bumblebee....alternate....Watergate.. ..pollinate.
                          Last edited by bottle; 11-20-2015, 05:30 AM.

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                          • Procrustes

                            Teaching pros will sometimes object to one-size-fits-all thinking in tennis. They could go one step further to make this sentiment more memorable by explaining the meaning of the word procrustean (same idea) and then describe Procrustes as a rogue smith and bandit from Attica who stretched people or cut off their legs so as to fit the size of an iron bed.

                            Of course such use of Greek mythology might drive all tough guys and gals from tennis or so enrage them that they would drive every intellectual out of tennis either of which would be an equal shame.

                            'The conventional wisdom seems to be that athletes should never step outside their roles as entertainers to pontificate. That attitude is a stereotype of the dumb jock who is too busy jamming smart, adorkable kids into lockers to know anything about the world around them except what Coach tells them. Those days are over, folks.' Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, TIME
                            Last edited by bottle; 11-20-2015, 08:57 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Lead Elbow Reversed

                              I've tried so many forms of see see that I feel I shouldn't ignore the other possibilities. My first question is "Who knows?" Who really has figured out a simpler and more reliable way of hitting the see see, and if so, why haven't they shared this information with others? Or "with udders," as Andre Agassi would say.

                              Am always looking for Aunt Frieda's (about to be 102) "stupid little thing that might make a big difference." And this has led to misunderstanding. For opponents know I can hit the shot-- they've seen me do it and even have begged me not to do it. So why shouldn't I be happy with the way I did it? Because I miss my see sees too. And because I suspect there is a better way to hit them that has nothing to do with athleticism and everything to do with common sense.

                              Today we start with two English expressions, one from tennis-- "lead elbow"-- and the other a verb from mathematics-- to "sum." Lead elbow, generally speaking, refers to a seizing up of the whole body, a kind of cerebral arthritic paralysis, i.e., what happens to the tin woodman after a thunderstorm.

                              More specifically, lead elbow implies an elbow that ought to slide or throw past or away from or away from and then into the body but doesn't. Well, lead is heavy. So we start by lightening up, by utterly relaxing the shoulder so that the elbow can move with smoothness and ease.

                              The second expression, "to sum," gets used far less in tennis than "kinetic chain" and other dreams of sequence. Those theories and dreams are neither bad nor the whole story.

                              We sum the following elements today although falling snow forbids the use of an outdoor court: relaxed elbow combined with severely closed racket that got that way early. Plus adduction from right scapula plus minimal body rotation of hips into flat foot.

                              A backswing that could enable this: inverted or down and up like that of John McEnroe only with a western grip. To this I would add a snakelike return of head toward ball on the up of down-and-up (reptilian head in the case of the serpent, racket tip return in the case of the tennis player). The arm which was fairly straight contracts to a right angle to do this.

                              Envisioned strings are parallel to court-- that closed. The hitting side scapula has cocked (retracted) as part of the easy backswing. The forward swing now can go more away from the body. The shoulders therefore are more open to the target than in certain other designs. The strings are in the process of opening rather than closing as they make contact with the ball.

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                              • Addendum to this Futuristic Thought

                                The immediately preceding scheme includes scapular retraction in that right shoulder-blade (in the case of a right handed player) clenches toward left shoulder-blade. Well, that action might be made to fight hips rotation into flat left foot rather than happen sooner during the down and up backswing. One of these alternatives ought to work better than the other-- will see.
                                Last edited by bottle; 11-23-2015, 05:56 AM.

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