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  • Cut the Wire Type Release

    Pulling the knob expands the zone in which you hit through the ball.-- Craig Monroe

    This precept applies to tennis as well as baseball, but, pulling the knob to shrink-wrap the sharpest turn to make it coincide for longest with one's contact point certainly is counter-intuitive.

    Coincides then while it goes the fastest.

    This discussion for me right now is both about topspin backhands and Federfores, where the spearing also qualifies as "pulling the knob."

    A one hand topspin backhand of any kind is really two hand one hand only with different places where the two hands separate.

    For 1htsbh to short tee, the backhand that interests me most right now, one can do the sit and hit described in # 2175 and then build tension while spearing from rear thigh to front thigh.

    Cue possibility then becomes good if one has the diagonal thumb behind racket that I have come with pain to advise.

    Vic Braden used to use a magic marker to draw an X on the ball of the thumb and tell people to swing the X toward the target.

    If in trying to employ cut the wire technology however you build tension between hands while spearing the small amount from rear to front thigh, you may want to keep spearing more after the sudden hand separation. You will want to do this especially if you have the idea in mind of pulling on the butt ring.

    Don't do it. That is a mistake. Press with thumb in a circular swing pattern instead while guide hand holds the tip back, i.e., creates the spear.

    You try to swing while you actually spear. While the two hands fight each other. You build turning (swinging) tension. Release of the racket then springs the strings around through the ball.

    Tennis strokes are best learned from feel over logic, and the feel of this scheme will have to be bizarre. You will stub the racket out of the opposite hand.

    So there is tension-- wonderful. Completely relax however or nothing will work.

    *************************************

    Upon further reflection, pulling knob toward ball though not by the butt rim seems best prescription for one's Federfore as well.

    On backhand side one has the use of two hands to build up some future racket head speed. On forehand side, one can do a one-handed mondo for the same purpose.

    One only has to think of mondo or flip as three elements: sudden wrist layback, sudden winding back of forearm and protracted effort to make something go straight that would rather swing around.

    Call the suddenness part of the effort at protraction followed by a "cut the wire" type release.

    An implication of this at least for me is no more loose motion from the shoulder at this point. Extra turn of the shoulder compared to classic method, not looseness at the shoulder, makes the spear stay straight for a long time and get out front.
    Last edited by bottle; 07-09-2014, 08:42 AM.

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    • Learn How to Do Something Wrong in Order to Do it Right

      I've got my basic and easy backhand. It is NOT sit and hit. In fact when I sit, i.e., step out, the racket remains at shoulder level while the shoulders continue to wind back.

      Sit and hit however buys time for effective spear which generates a delayed spring-driven release.

      There is nothing wrong with this. I repeat. Nothing wrong.

      The wrong I shall now attempt will be to bring the racket tip around entirely with action of the hips starting with flying splay of the front foot as both knees turn sharply to the right.

      Vic Braden asserted that one could actually hit the ball something like this in his famous tale of the Argentine leather craftsman who fashioned him a holster so that he could hit backhands with no hands.

      What Vic Braden didn't say although I will forgive him is that one would reduce dwell on the ball this way.

      We should just try swinging racket tip with hips though.

      THEN, hold shoulders back. And racket tip back. As hips doing same thing as before move the spear.

      Have hips move the tip. Then have hips move the spear. Alternating three times. Repeat on forehand side. Then play some tennis moving the spear.
      Last edited by bottle; 07-09-2014, 09:07 AM.

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      • Sometimes, Bottle, I really wish I could have you on the court just one time. We would have a wonderful time going through some of your various theories with a little assistance from my "Twins".

        don

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        • Next time I make it to L.A. (although that could be a while). Would be much more interesting than the set I played with the screen-writer at Griffith Park the time I did find myself out there.
          Last edited by bottle; 07-10-2014, 06:42 AM.

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          • Backhand Grip: An Ugly Memoir

            All the one-handers were wrapping their thumb around the handle so I did too.

            So many people acting unanimously showed knowledge reinforced by a solid data base, I thought.

            My thumb rode tucked against the side of my ring finger.

            Against fast balls this arrangement produced a few good if unstable shots.

            Never did I recover the clean clink of earlier experiments.

            I couldn't find much information on this subject. Finally, I read someplace that people use the wrap for more flexibility.

            But I wanted less flexibility.

            It wasn't until my 74th year that I saw the old video where Don Budge advises tennis aspirants to place a bit more thumb behind the ball.

            Don Budge-- a hell of a polite and impeccably dressed guy. Liked big bands. Esther Williams. Joking around. Steve Navarro.

            His brother Lloyd judging from Lloyd's famous tennis book was as shrewd a hepcat as ever did live.

            And Don himself seemed more rational than anyone else I have ever encountered in tennis except for the time at Wimbledon when he confused his own backhand slice with his own backhand topspin.

            Such a rational man in every way except for that one glitch. But did not that glitch prove that he was human and therefore even more credible?

            I am not kidding. Why should I not now believe Don Budge on the seldom debated question of diagonal thumb over all living tennis professionals who teach their unwitting one-hander students a full wrap?

            Vic Braden: Diagonal thumb across rear plane of racket (# 7). Roy Emerson: Same. Ed Faulkner: Same.

            The reason I failed to turn this message into conviction the first time I read ED FAULKNER'S TENNIS was that that tall green book was written for rational people.

            And I am not always a rational person. For instance, I once was fired as chauffeur to the Ambassador of Sri Lanka because of my irrational sense of direction.

            We were due at a large reception at the personal home of Willi Brandt, chancellor of West Germany.

            I would steer the long black embassy limousine (a Buick) proudly flying a plastic encased lion on its right fender um die Ecke ("around the corner") and there would be The Berlin Wall.

            Over and over. Fired.

            Similarly, if one extends thumb straight up panel 7, as Ed Faulkner explains, one 1) closes strings and 2) lags racket tip farther behind.

            Try it! Short-circuit my 30-year mistake rather than repeat it.

            Hold the racket level in front with a one hand backhand grip. Put thumb on a diagonal across panel 7. Now slide thumb straight up panel 7 . Now return to the diagonal. Repeat. There will be a change. What do the strings do?

            They do as Ed Faulkner says.

            But you can adjust thumb to less than 45 degrees too. You can be like everybody else and use the full wrap "for more flexibility."

            And wobble your way through an unrealized tennis life.
            Last edited by bottle; 07-10-2014, 06:57 AM.

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            • Moe Norman...Vertical Drop and Horizontal Tug

              Originally posted by bottle View Post
              Don Budge-- a hell of a polite and impeccably dressed guy. Liked big bands. Esther Williams. Joking around. Steve Navarro.
              "Tennis is golf on the run"...don_budge








              Originally posted by bottle View Post
              And wobble your way through an unrealized tennis life.
              bottle...really knows how to put it into words. Speaking of which...Moe says no hips but it certainly looks like hips to me. Maybe what he means is "limited" hips.

              Here bottle...we talk of Hogan. Here is the other side of the coin...Moe Norman. Quite the interesting character. Sort of the "Rain Man" of golf. An idiot savant...like "The Idiot" of Dostoyevsky. Is there something of interest here for us tennis theorists.

              Just some food for thought...some words to play a "round" with. Thanks...please continue.
              Last edited by don_budge; 07-11-2014, 03:38 AM. Reason: for clarity's sake...
              don_budge
              Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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              • Flat Feet and from the Gut

                Shoulders only pull the hips to pull the rear heel up at the end.

                Moe is a great explainer too. In these videos there is all kinds of stuff to pay attention to BEYOND big questions of hips vs. gut or hips and gut vs. hips.



                Should one follow Moe Norman down the primrose path of extracting most energy from between the hips and the shoulders?

                If one has nothing better to do. Probably depends on how one started out as a kid. In the golf-oriented family from which I come a big and early hips pivot was paramount.

                Ironically, although I eventually picked up tennis invention in a big way, I was better at it at 16 than 74.

                My primary effort at 74 is to recover my good if somewhat erratic 16-year-old's forehand (which sat up too much for the opponent). To recover it in the light of more knowledge and different grips, etc.

                How interesting (and fun) it is to know some alternate ways of hitting a ball-- though I like to see legs push hips rotation to the max. (I am an oarsman so I always think the legs ought to be pushing something.)

                As you indicate, Steve, what a character that Moe.
                Last edited by bottle; 07-11-2014, 12:15 PM.

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                • Ed Faulkner's Eastern Forehand Grip

                  The grip system Edwin J. Faulkner and Frederick Weymuller propound in the old green book ED FAULKNER'S TENNIS uses words instead of numbers to describe each handle's eight slats.

                  From rear view of racket we see top, right bevel, right vertical panel, right under bevel, bottom, left under bevel, left vertical panel, and left bevel.

                  The alternate numbers more customarily used today offer the convenience of decimal possibility, i.e., 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, 5.5, 6.5, 7.5, 8.5 for the eight pointy ridges.

                  The terms eastern, western, semi-western and continental fail us as helpful human communication in that while each one may imply position of the base knuckle, it doesn't tell where the more important heel of the hand goes, and in fact these heels are all over the place creating huge differences in how someone is going to hit the ball.

                  Of course if someone is such a natural athlete ("which way to the beach") that he doesn't require any of this knowledge to substantiate his number one standing in the world, he deserves instant coffee along with instant enshrinement in Newport's Tennis Hall of Fame.

                  According to Fuzzy Yellow Balls, Roger Federer uses eastern grip with heel on 3 and base knuckle on 3.

                  But Ed Faulkner defines eastern grip as heel on right bevel (translates as 2) with base knuckle on 3 .

                  So when a teaching pro or anybody is spitting information like grains of barley and says something about an eastern grip, what does he mean?

                  Reader, you try Faulkner's eastern next Federer's eastern and report back.

                  Tell me if there was not a huge difference in the forehands you hit and what that difference was if you can say.
                  Last edited by bottle; 07-12-2014, 06:02 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by bottle View Post
                    Shoulders only pull the hips to pull the rear heel up at the end.

                    Moe is a great explainer too. In these videos there is all kinds of stuff to pay attention to BEYOND big questions of hips vs. gut or hips and gut vs. hips.



                    Should one follow Moe Norman down the primrose path of extracting most energy from between the hips and the shoulders?

                    If one has nothing better to do. Probably depends on how one started out as a kid. In the golf-oriented family from which I come a big and early hips pivot was paramount.

                    Ironically, although I eventually picked up tennis invention in a big way, I was better at it at 16 than 74.

                    My primary effort at 74 is to recover my good if somewhat erratic 16-year-old's forehand (which sat up too much for the opponent). To recover it in the light of more knowledge and different grips, etc.

                    How interesting (and fun) it is to know some alternate ways of hitting a ball-- though I like to see legs push hips rotation to the max. (I am an oarsman so I always think the legs ought to be pushing something.)

                    As you indicate, Steve, what a character that Moe.


                    Hip rotation proceeds torso rotation....spend much of my time trying to teach people that the body turns from the ground up (A very important/fundamental principle) Defrancesco (through video) shows how wrong Moe was...
                    Last edited by 10splayer; 07-12-2014, 08:40 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 10splayer View Post
                      http://youtu.be/dzc2QLmd_MY

                      Hip rotation proceeds torso rotation....spend much of my time trying to teach people that the body turns from the ground up (A very important/fundamental principle) Defrancesco (through video) shows how wrong Moe was...
                      Ricky Fowler is another golfer without the foot action of a Nicklaus, leading to more extraction of energy from the gut. So different ways can work even if we all have a personal idea of what's best. I have a friend who taught a lot of tennis but said he never had much luck teaching hips...so everything was more about the shoulders...until he became an editor of haiku poetry.
                      Last edited by bottle; 07-13-2014, 05:29 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Finding the Best Shot for Faulkner's Eastern Grip (Different)

                        Originally posted by bottle View Post
                        According to Fuzzy Yellow Balls, Roger Federer uses eastern grip with heel on 3 and base knuckle on 3.

                        But Ed Faulkner defines eastern grip as heel on right bevel (translates as 2) with base knuckle on 3 .

                        So when a teaching pro or anybody is spitting information like grains of barley and says something about an eastern grip, what does he mean?

                        Reader, you try Faulkner's eastern next Federer's eastern and report back.

                        Tell me if there was not a huge difference in the forehands you hit and what that difference was if you can say.
                        The writer is the reader and more often than people know the only reader.
                        Not receiving immediate answer, I resorted to progressions as I usually do.
                        Faulkner's eastern for a companion shot to the Australian gripped McEnrueful.
                        Federer's eastern for Federfores.

                        Faulkner's eastern is great for neutral stance hips-driven line drives without
                        arm roll. But all my forehands are hips-driven these days. The distraction of a new grip or rather a grip I hadn't used for decades (if ever) probably caused me to use minimal roll-- not impossible in such a body shot. The arm isn't doing much. So it can have the adjustment task.

                        Better though would be to close the racket a little within the new grip maybe while still in waiting position. Then during the actual sweeping swing one can be more uninhibited, and maybe I'll remember this at the next self-feed session. Before moving through subsequent steps to match play.

                        On the backhand front I realized that the pictures in Faulkner's green book indicate a waiting position with TOP of racket even with left shoulder. That means less straightening than I've been doing. Whittling down has occurred.

                        The alternate backhand I've been theorizing, a Braden sit and hit, went fine.
                        The one backhand requires no effort, the other great effort but great result too at least in self-feed.

                        A lot of my inventions over the decades have not proceeded beyond self-feed. This one will. Perhaps because I spent years of trying to use sit and hit from the book TENNIS FOR THE FUTURE. And because I was so impressed with Vic Braden's actual backhand when I saw him self-feed it for five hours while he held forth and maintained conversation with 500 people in Winchester, Virginia one time.

                        As for serves, I liked very much the forum post which praised the virtue of not thrusting one's lead hip out toward the net the way we all were told. Also, Faulkner writes that one should keep upper arm pointed at rear fence while the forward serve starts...since building momentum is part of a serve, and to throw properly one throws the elbow a bit.

                        So the new ideas march on. And on the medical front, my orthopedist said, "You tried very hard to rip your Achilles tendon but you didn't succeed." He prescribed 12 sessons of physical therapy to build up muscles around the strain. In the meantime, he agrees, I can play a little tennis so long as it isn't SERIOUS tennis, but if I rip the tendon I will be very, very sorry though such a repair would be nothing for him.
                        Last edited by bottle; 07-13-2014, 09:40 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Extension Forever

                          One line of thought leads to another. The basic form for ground strokes can now be stated herewith (as if no one has ever put things exactly this way before).

                          No matter the grip and arm structure, the arm and body will act as a solid unit through most of the stroke.

                          Extension ideally way out toward the target then whether fast or slow will occur from the shoulder. "Arm will take a solo" but do it late with body continuing to rotate at reduced speed.

                          This latter movement especially in a Federfore-ATP3 feels like an accelerating slam to me no matter the degree of wiper included or excluded.

                          Modern cars and forehands have subtle controls over wipe, don't you know.

                          You can wipe fast, slow, medium, sporadically or not at all.

                          A tennis writer as thorough as Edwin J. Faulkner will also raise an opposite possibility, that independent arm movement may precede delayed shoulders and hips, pulling them into an extension of followthrough.

                          I see forehands struck this way as a separate genre with separate qualities. I call them Ziegenfusses after a late 20th century pioneer in women's tennis who finally came to hit her every forehand this way.
                          Last edited by bottle; 07-14-2014, 12:11 PM.

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                          • Orchestration

                            Re-orchestrating re-tooled ground strokes is great fun. I figure that all the tennis instruction that shuns tennis technique nowadays-- cardio, etc.-- could be replaced by firing squads.

                            Just kill all tennis students in the first minute. They'll never have to think about technique again.

                            It boggles my mind that I've just re-discovered a real Eastern forehand grip if I ever had one: heel on 2, base knuckle of index finger on 3. A 2/3 then, not a 3/3 which Ed Faulkner calls a semiwestern. Think I'll save the 2/3 grip for a Ziegenfuss (see # 2187), the 1.5/2.5 for the McEnrueful, the 3/3 for a Federfore.
                            Last edited by bottle; 07-14-2014, 01:06 PM.

                            Comment


                            • New Federfore, New Ziegenfuss

                              The 3/3 grip called semiwestern in ED FAULKNER'S TENNIS also includes thumb on panel 8, i.e., "left bevel" with that being the only difference from Roger's eastern forehand grip called such by contemporary teaching professionals.

                              To my eye Roger Federer's thumb is wrapped around # 7 or "left vertical panel" so I have to ask, What difference would shifting thumb slightly upward to # 8 produce?

                              To be accurate in one's description, one needs to understand that Faulkner's view includes hearty contempt for the semiwestern thus identified. The player using it, Faulkner and Weymuller opine, is not apt sufficiently to extend or hit through the ball.

                              From that we can project likely more contempt for more extreme grips no matter what for them the decayed terminology of the present age.

                              Whether Roger's forehand grip is "eastern" or "semiwestern," Roger finds the means to properly extend and so can anyone who wants to imitate him if they are willing to study the necessary methodology a bit.

                              So what would thumb on 8 mean if it worked at all? A slightly more open string bed for the extension-wiper corollaries that most likely vary to one another in inverse proportion.

                              Additionally if one already carries thumb on a diagonal across left vertical panel for a backhand, the total grip change including thumb to 8 will prove easy and economical.

                              ***************
                              Pendulum Style Ziegenfuss Examined in More Detail

                              This could be the rare shot that is harder to figure out than to implement. Since arm will tock forward from the shoulder just as it tocked backward, should it follow the grandfather clock idea all the way and tock forward on the exact same path?

                              I think not-- pantomime a more horizontal swing instead. This will bring contact point back from net toward the body a little whether that will be good or bad.

                              The more horizontal path will also reduce the amount of string bed closing required for square contact.

                              But how to close string bed? Shouldn't we always ask that? Should we close first then let the racket naturally open out as it gets farther in front of the body?

                              Save that formula for any case where the hips start early and arm slams through the hitting zone later, say I. The slow arm finding the ball allows or can allow plenty of time in which to roll-adjust gradually thus keeping racket on edge or slightly beveled up to the point where gross body takes over.

                              In a slow arm swing in other words, trust thyself to adjust; in a fast arm swing make sure thou adjusted already. (Admittedly the McEnrueful, a great shot though sad it isn't a McEnroeful, may be an exception.)

                              But what about the hip step-out in development for hip-dominant or hip early strokes-- so very hip?

                              Should the hips splay the foot in mid-air? That provides nice landing in dancer's balance with weight transfer continuing nicely from the front foot.

                              Again, I think not. Better to step with a square rather than splaying foot. Shoulders can then pull the hips which will pull the rear heel up.

                              Yes Valerie Ziegenfuss Bradshaw and Moe Norman have a few things in common.
                              Last edited by bottle; 07-15-2014, 01:33 PM.

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                              • First Summer Play with the Good Geezers

                                The Federfore worked well, even with the new pendulum backswing and thumb on 8 . So did the Ziegenfuss, the two new backhands, the backhand slice, a few serves.

                                So what am I griping about? Well, net game was non-existent after a 3-month layoff, but what truly depressed was the McEnrueful.

                                That is my basic 16-year-old's shot. And during mild tennis a few weeks ago it crackled well, but today I couldn't control it at all.

                                The down and up backswing combined with extra horizontality of racket work from step out only takes too much time, I suppose. This would explain why this shot works perfectly in self-feed but not in actual play-- at least so far.

                                I'll just try to hit with someone-- anyone-- a lot, tidy up the backswing, step, let the racket change direction and slam the ball with all timing determined by ground stroke exchange rather than by the conscious me.

                                That happened on the 4th of July when I started trading groundies with my friend Wes.

                                The shot is there. I just need to find it again.
                                Last edited by bottle; 07-16-2014, 10:22 AM.

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