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A New Year's Serve

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  • bottle
    replied
    Dance Baby Dance

    To a three-beat rhythm: ditditdit. Am thinking primarily but not exclusively about forehand.

    So which is it going to be, leftrightleft as in the basic neutral forehand of Stan Smith? Right left right for modern semi-open?

    Am talking about the last three steps before the ball is struck. There could have been earlier steps.

    Swing or jitterbug alternatives: Weight, weight, rockstep; ditditdit, ditditdit, rockstep (weight shifting madly from one foot to the other and back in two ditditdits before the rockstep).

    Rockstep as all things in tennis will come to pass but it is the ditditdit in swing that I want to glom into for now.

    I described one form of this. Bop is another. You stay on one foot and and bend knee twice. Middle dit is the straightening of leg in between.

    Charleston is another. Yes you can charleston while doing swing or jitterbug (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUqRAUxip4U).

    In tennis I'm for using first forms of ditditdit mentioned here: 1) leftrightleft (Stan Smith), 2) right left right (Roger Federer), 3) bop (boppety) which I'm just looking into.

    How about this for a forehand? One starts with right foot. Then one steps onto left foot and bounces on it again to hit the shot.

    This ought to confuse somebody, reader, let it not be you.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-07-2015, 08:12 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Another Contrast

    A lot of banking in the Djokovic stroke (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...4%20250fps.mp4). Some banking sometime in the martinet McEnroe stroke but mostly not (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...enterFront.mov).

    "Banking." An important aeronautical term in Welby Van Horn-Ed Weiss. If you were a wing walker you would prefer to do it more on a John McEnroe forehand than a Novak Djokovic.

    My McEnrueful, I would have to say, depends on a lot of banking at least right now.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-05-2015, 05:37 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    The Difference

    Could be wrong but here's what I think:

    McEnrueful: Arm first then body lengthens carry and followthrough. One can change direction easily by regulating speed and length of body turn. The elbow stays pretty close in while in the hitting area.

    Djokovic pattern forehand: Weld body and arm into a single unit and whirl racket around. When rod of arm gets out front push elbow in direction of shot as you wipe up and across before natural return. There is a continuing large body turn in modern forehands but the pre-contact part is much faster and laden with forward momentum. And stronger i.e. more westernized grip allows racket to stay on edge until it naturally opens out to almost square.

    Both of these shots tend toward semi-open. But in this first Djokovic video sequence (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...t%20250fps.mp4) he starts open stance and then brings left foot into the new arrangement-- an aggressive choice of footwork at end of body turn that allows shoulders to turn back even farther. I don't see why this move couldn't be applied to a McEnrueful to lengthen the carry (dwell) even more while bringing contact back a bit and giving oneself the use of more angular body movement to power and steer the shot.

    To summarize: In either guy's shot one can hit off of either foot but from preferred semi-open stance (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...tLevelRear.mov). What are the last three dance beats as far as footwork is concerned: left right left or right left right? Either for either (forget left-handedness which becomes irrelevant to this discussion).

    This they have in common. And an ability to leave the ground. Can one learn from them but stay more grounded? If one knows how (See Welby Van Horn).

    The real difference is in sequence: arm then body in McEnroe's feel and shove vs. Djokovic's body then arm in his big whack. But Djokovic has tremendous touch available to him too.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-05-2015, 01:59 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    More McEnruefuls

    More McEnruefuls is a constant temptation, especially if one is willing to go with slice nearly all the time on the backhand side since one can use the same grip.

    Every idea at this point seems to predict new strategy in doubles. Zi-Zi the teaching pro says to be kind to oneself one should play net more but learn how to read better for a poach regardless of age.

    And you say more McEnruefuls to c-a-a-a-r-r-ry the ball.

    Good advice all the way around. And I say based on past experience to change grip once in a while if the score is 40-0 and pulverize the ball. All depends on whether one wants to be smart or feel like a teenager.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-04-2015, 06:34 AM.

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  • stotty
    replied
    Carrying is good, Craig is right...

    Originally posted by bottle View Post
    One of the many teaching pros named Craig Wilson wrote a book in which he urged his readers to C-A-A-A-R-R-R-Y the ball. That word, spelled exactly this way, was his central theme.
    Interesting. I always thought the ultimate carrier of a ball was McEnroe. Short of sitting the ball on the strings then carting it to the net and letting it roll off the strings over the other side of the, it would be hard to beat McEnroe for this.

    See here, the first point, a steered return of serve is just awesome. Talk about cart the ball over the net on your strings. I swear he keeps the ball on the strings a whole second longer than anyone else...or so it seems.



    McEnrueful is the way to go for players like us. Today's forehands are sling shots with little "carrying" going on. I say carry...no sling shots.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Inspire a See See by Putting a Ghost Figure on the Service Line

    Lots of players-- and I am one of them-- will surprise themselves by whipping a topspin angle in front of a real player standing or bouncing on the service line.

    Self-reaction: "Oh, I didn't know I had that shot working for me today."

    This reaction is correct. You don't take this shot (or any shot in fact) for granted. And there probably was some sort of delay involved in production of the shot whether technical or psychological or both.

    So visualize the ghost especially when your real doubles opponent is back on the baseline. If no other ghost comes up try using me, Horatio, to tell you, assuming that you are Young Hamlet, to look out for your father.

    Since the former King of Denmark, Old Hamlet, will appear in full armor, he shouldn't move too fast.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-04-2015, 04:45 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Puffed Up Forehands

    One of the many teaching pros named Craig Wilson wrote a book in which he urged his readers to C-A-A-A-R-R-R-Y the ball. That word, spelled exactly this way, was his central theme.

    Later, when his wife, who supposedly learned from him, had her greatest tennis success, some critics who had watched both of them play asserted that Crag C-A-A-A-R-R-R-IED the ball quite a bit more than Craig, a controversial statement given his high perch in the tennis world.

    I only know of Crag's success from distant reports-- everybody but I seemed to know about it one day. I can look it up, I suppose, if I can remember Crag's real first name. I came up with "Crag" since Craig never mentions her in his book and she was his wife and they lived in the center of a tennis complex high up in big mountains.

    An appraiser was there to estimate the value of their house, got caught in a storm, had to stay overnight.

    In the morning there was four inches of ice on all of the trees and roads, and two inches of ice on all the roads down in the valley so that nobody could go anywhere.

    The appraiser heard the whir of a generator and rhythmic thumping inside the garage, looked through a window from the kitchen, saw both Craig and Crag alternating shots against the rear wall.

    Craig clearly swept the ball while Crag clearly mushed it with huge racket head speed. She loaded then drove from her outside leg into a total arch of her upper bod.

    Note: Yup, Craig and Crag, a tennis couple to compete with all tennis couples, but how were their net games, does anybody know?
    Last edited by bottle; 11-03-2015, 08:35 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Build Tension for "Cut the Wire" During One-Hander Prop

    Tony Roche is the one teaching pro I've ever encountered whether in spoken or written form who frequently uses the expressions "prop" and "prop step" to explain what rear foot in a ground stroke should start out by doing.

    To follow Doug King's rule that tennis ideas ought to go free, that any instructor should feel free to steal from any other without attribution (the reason I laugh out loud when the more legal minded Tennis Player posters start talking about copyright infringement) I don't see why one can't use front foot too as a prop step or perhaps outrigger in a one hand topspin backhand.

    I see this happening after a quick flying grip change to top of the backswing-- so quick that it allows hand and racket to pause there in the case of an unhurried shot.

    Right then with racket head still is the time to build tension between the hands and set one's outrigger in one's bumpety-bump stepout.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-02-2015, 09:40 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Elimination of Counter-Roll from Forearm in a See See

    That is my current course of action. I think I want just a bit of forearm roll, not the full available range and strength of motion, and this approach combined with recent discovery about elbow release is easier to time.

    It seems that a good see see regardless of feet arrangement (to an extent) is hoving into view.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-02-2015, 07:07 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Self-Education on the Forehand Side

    One culinary theory (mine) says you ought to tap an egg four times down against a flat surface before you crack it on the fifth. Hold the egg by its ends. Go "onetwothreefourFIVE."

    Sit down on a chair and cross your legs and press elbow into your side and imitate the special egg-cracking rhythm.

    Using right-angled elbow as a pivot point, wag your hand back and forth so that it finds the top of your knee four times.

    The four forward halves of this routine should be the same length. Use same length of hand travel a fifth time only push the elbow forward instead of using it as a pivot point.

    Now look down at where the hand is. Farther around past the knee in a more crosscourt direction with palm closed a bit more.

    Did you twist elbow up to achieve this happy result? You'd better not. That would almost be the definition of destabilizing a forehand. You might hit a few great forehands that way but miss more.

    No one should want to be fooling around with pitch overly much just as one makes contact with a tennis ball except maybe during the all-trusting tight vertical circle produced by UAR (upper arm rotation) in a good serve.

    But fear of destabilization like fear of terrorism can quickly get overdone and turn one into a gibbering idiot.

    In ground strokes in tennis, one can successfully roll over or under the ball a little if one does it in a natural rather than mechanical way.

    But one shouldn't do it all the time. And how the shoulders are set will very much affect one's pitch at contact.

    The more the two shoulders face the net the more elbow going out will open the strings. Many instructors teach this method as a way of achieving vertical racket for contact.

    If shoulders are extremely closed, racket face will severely close too as part of a cramped swing that may hit one in the head. (I have a scar.)

    If one does something in between one may not change pitch at all. The point is that one now has more control over one's pitch and aim through simple expansion of consciousness.

    I see a bunch of new stroke possibilities. Some will have to do with when one decides to release the elbow. In the middle of body turn? Before body turn? Toward the end of body turn? After body turn as in a see see?

    I have thoughts on those questions but not yet on these ones: Should one always start elbow right away as one's arm swing or keep it in as pivot point in an either/or? Or do a little wagging first before the release? Would that even be workable? Haven't explored that at all.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-02-2015, 06:58 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Risky Wristy Behavior

    My present understanding of this subject starts with Stotty's advice about mondo or flip, that if one has the talent to do it, do it, if not, don't.

    He got me to thinking: What about laying wrist back gradually as part of a level forehand backswing? That's good for a very fast ball. Transition then can come from body only. The hips are turning but they are traveling toward the net at the same time, and this flattish shot will therefore carry enough topspin for control.

    Now comes a slower ball with somebody lurking at the net and waiting to knock off one's reply. If you didn't already beat that person by hitting a hard well-aimed shot very early the option still remains for deceptive delay.

    The success of this will come from good "read": One can have taken back the wrist or rather hand from wrist after the shoulders are turned. This will pretty much freeze anybody, especially if you don't do it all the time.

    Now comes the simpleton's choice of wanting to hit the biggest forehand he can. I'm all for a big 3/4 loop (by using the fraction I mean to suggest a backward racket path somewhat to the outside). I see leading with elbow for immediate springing of the racket head way back. Here is the extension that tennis aficionados so admire. That extension will continue to the side and then to the front with body and arm a single unit and this firm process including a mondo that happens when it wants; finally, some further arm work will enter the picture whether the body twist continues or not.

    Would such orchestration be bad? I can't see why. For cc topspin angle, incidentally, I don't have the talent for any kind of wrist layback and plan to keep wrist straight to make the challenge easier.

    Note: Add simultaneous downward forearm roll to any of the basic wrist laybacks for spinnier, more slow traveling variation.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-02-2015, 06:48 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Bumpety-Bump on the Cage Wire One-Hander

    My interest in the possible footwork of various see sees (FH topspin angles) has renewed my interest in swing or jitterbug rhythms.

    Or vice-versa. In jitterbug one can stand with feet parallel to net (oh, sorry for putting up a net) then shift weight from left foot to right foot to left foot; then from right foot to left foot to right foot followed by rockstep on left foot and call it Chattanooga choo-choo and do it again.

    That's ditditdit, ditditdit, rockstep, ditditdit, ditditdit, rockstep.

    But if one is too old and slow for that, one can just go weight, weight, rockstep.

    I find compromise in bouncing on each foot, going down twice (on each foot). That's still three micro-beats but psychologically two.

    Some of my somewhat comparable see sees, as they develop, are turning into a bumpety-bump. That would be leftrightleft and a cross. One dreams of naturally pitching forward onto the end of the cross step in perfect balance, and if one can't dream this one can't do it.

    The syllables of "bumpety" correspond to ditditdit in this case. In a repeating one hand backhand as demonstrated on the opening page of this Tennis Player issue, one can't discover such literal correspondence.

    But, there still is the overall feel of a bumpety-bump-- a unit turn and quick prop-step and a smooth step-out from there.

    One needs to do this rhythmically or not at all. If one can't do it I guess one is best off with a simple unit turn and step across-- this is going to happen in emergencies anyway. Be honest though: Which of these two footworks is better?

    I like to try the more subtle maneuver integrated with a flying grip change that takes racket as high as I'm going to permit it to go.

    Then, to steal Doug King's image of a Pacific Ocean wave about to crash (It's all right: he gave me permission) there is a last instant pause in which I try to pull racket hand down from hand on throat which prefers to strangle the racket rather than let it go.

    That to be in the moderately high point of a great one hander. The loopy and beautiful swing starts from there.
    Last edited by bottle; 10-31-2015, 06:49 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Edgy Stuff

    Originally posted by bottle View Post
    "Bottom" and "top" edges are internal orientation terms established at address. The meaning of them does not change even though top becomes bottom, bottom top etc.

    So here is the edge described serve for tonight's tennis social (mixer), the only time anyone takes their tennis seriously.

    bottom
    top
    top
    top
    bottom
    top
    top

    A disquisition can be written on each of the seven edge descriptions but don't do it.
    Ah, the precious surface of things. A tennis player has to know when to hold em when to fold em I mean when to be superficial and when not?

    I can recite this 7-category mantra in bed, in fact did so this morning and Hope didn't even do or say anything nasty as one would expect.

    Trying it out for the first time on the court last night, I held serve every time through three different partners and sets of opponents. I could tell right off that it would work. But the serves got better as the night wore on. Why? Because I stopped thinking categories and let everything get smoother which created some new emphasis, i.e., a little faster here, slower there, faster here-- especially the second "bottom" which is a tight coin on edge if you can hold your elbow back.

    I know that to value words in tennis is often considered unfashionable or worse. I'll go along with this to an extent. But the rough evenness of the categories as starter got me organized, it really did.
    Last edited by bottle; 11-01-2015, 06:17 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Mixed Up Serve

    "Bottom" and "top" edges are internal orientation terms established at address. The meaning of them does not change even though top becomes bottom, bottom top etc.

    So here is the edge described serve for tonight's tennis social (mixer), the only time anyone takes their tennis seriously.

    bottom
    top
    top
    top
    bottom
    top
    top

    A disquisition can be written on each of the seven edge descriptions but don't do it.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Actually I got some speed but think I can do better through holding the elbow back and high with left hand and imagining racket and all the rest of the serve.
    Last edited by bottle; 10-30-2015, 03:28 AM.

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