Racquet tip on forehand

[uspta3577514567]

Members, I do not know about you but I dislike the WTA forehand commonality of allowing the racquet tip to point behind the back towards the left during the backswing. Why do so many women do this? Henin did not do this. Agassi and so many other men point the tip towards the right or straight up, but none seem to point the racquet to the left. Do you guys know what I mean?

Why do women seem to do this more often?

[BrianGordon]

.... 67-

Excellent observations/questions! - most experts have largely missed the boat on this one, probably because the complete answer is definitely not obvious - I will refrain at this point because I'll be producing another manifesto (I mean stroke mechanics series), this time on the forehand in 2009 - still, interested to hear any explanations from the board members - BG

[julian]

Sharapova

Members, I do not know about you but I dislike the WTA forehand commonality of allowing the racquet tip to point behind the back towards the left during the backswing. Why do so many women do this? Henin did not do this. Agassi and so many other men point the tip towards the right or straight up, but none seem to point the racquet to the left. Do you guys know what I mean?

Why do women seem to do this more often?

Is

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/maria_sharapova/ms_forehand/ms_fh_arm_action/ms_fh_arm_action.html?MSFHCenterArmActionCourtLevelSide1.mov

a good representation of your observation?

A corresponding for Henin could be

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/justine_heninhardenne/jhh_forehand/jhh_fh_center/jhh_fh_center.html?JHHFHCenterOpenStanceCourtLevelFront2.mov

A corresponding for Federer probably

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_forehand/rogerfederer_fh_center/rogerfederer_fh_center.html?FedererFHCenterOpenStanceCourtLevelFront1.mov

[uspta2448519013]

Members, I do not know about you but I dislike the WTA forehand commonality of allowing the racquet tip to point behind the back towards the left during the backswing. Why do so many women do this? Henin did not do this. Agassi and so many other men point the tip towards the right or straight up, but none seem to point the racquet to the left. Do you guys know what I mean?

Why do women seem to do this more often?

I was actually interested in doing an article on this subject in the future. Hopefully we'll see something down the road about it.

[jeffreycounts]

Another curious difference is that the vast majority of male players hit their two handed backhands with a straight left arm, while women are bent. I have to think some of this has to do with strength differences when strokes are first formed.

[airforce1]

I was actually interested in doing an article on this subject in the future. Hopefully we'll see something down the road about it.

Isn't this as simple as the extra range of movement for the ladies due to lack of development/muscle mass of lats, and flexibility. Just seems to be a less compact swing than is required by the speed of the men's game. I should look at return of serve to see if they still do it there.

[tommyt]

It seems that women lay their wrist back earlier than the men. The men have more of a neutral wrist at the backswing. Also, the women seem to swing in a circular motion (they bring their hand behind them) while the men swing in a linear motion (keeping the hand in line with the ball). Any thoughts.

Two different thoughts on why women have different strokes, (1)they don't have the upper body strength, and/or (2) they are taught differently because they are "girls".

Btw, I had a 13 year old female student go down to a friend's academy in Fla. She came back with this "women's" swing we are writing about. While she was in Fla. she trained mostly with older boy's... I don't know if hitting with boys and trying to generate more power changed her forehand.

[julian]

Kick serve ?

It seems that women lay their wrist back earlier than the men. The men have more of a neutral wrist at the backswing. Also, the women seem to swing in a circular motion (they bring their hand behind them) while the men swing in a linear motion (keeping the hand in line with the ball). Any thoughts.

Two different thoughts on why women have different strokes, (1)they don't have the upper body strength, and/or (2) they are taught differently because they are "girls".

Btw, I had a 13 year old female student go down to a friend's academy in Fla. She came back with this "women's" swing we are writing about. While she was in Fla. she trained mostly with older boy's... I don't know if hitting with boys and trying to generate more power changed her forehand.

There is another conjecture saying "Kick serve NOT very good/healthy for women"

[airforce1]

It seems that women lay their wrist back earlier than the men. The men have more of a neutral wrist at the backswing. Also, the women seem to swing in a circular motion (they bring their hand behind them) while the men swing in a linear motion (keeping the hand in line with the ball). Any thoughts.

Two different thoughts on why women have different strokes, (1)they don't have the upper body strength, and/or (2) they are taught differently because they are "girls".

Btw, I had a 13 year old female student go down to a friend's academy in Fla. She came back with this "women's" swing we are writing about. While she was in Fla. she trained mostly with older boy's... I don't know if hitting with boys and trying to generate more power changed her forehand.

I think we use pressure against our lats (wide back muscles) to start
the arms forward movement.
girl lats are usually very small, which allows the upper arm to go further back with restriction, than men normally do.

I know as I start my forward movement on the FH, there is pressure/contact of my tricep against my lat, which aids it.

[uspta3577514567]

yes

Yes what I'm saying is I've never seen a girl hit a forehand with the tip pointed to the right like Agassi or Blake. They always seem to lay their wrist back early. I mean I could stand at the left side of Blake and not worry about him getting hit. But put most WTA women out there, and I would get nailed by the backswing it'd be so long and on the wrong side of her body. Why do us teaching pros out there let these young girls get away with such big swings?

[uspta146749877]

Petrova and a tip of a racket at backswing

Yes what I'm saying is I've never seen a girl hit a forehand with the tip pointed to the right like Agassi or Blake. They always seem to lay their wrist back early. I mean I could stand at the left side of Blake and not worry about him getting hit. But put most WTA women out there, and I would get nailed by the backswing it'd be so long and on the wrong side of her body. Why do us teaching pros out there let these young girls get away with such big swings?

..67
If u see

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_woman/nadia_petrova/nadia_petrova_v1/nadia_petrova_v1.html?NPFHCenterOpenStanceFront-0180609-0001.mov

the tip of a racket is left and DOWN very quickly,much quicker DOWN that I would expect
THE DOWN part is a bit suprising to me.
I looked at

http://www.tennisone.com/club/slomo/schnyder/schnyder_3fh.php

as well.
A bit different for

http://www.tennisone.com/club/slomo/chakvetadze/chakvetadze_fh_fhseq.php

A racket is down NOT so quickly.
It looks like it a ball IS HIT LATE (or LATER than I would like) in the case of Petrova.
Did I choose a wrong example/video because a ball is low bouncing?
The left foot goes up very little

You compare again with

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/roger_federer/roger_federer_high_speed.html?FHCenterFront2-0003715-0001.mov

It looks like a tip of a racket comes down much later comparing with the first clip.
Do I see ir right?

[normand_trempe]

Hello!

Yes what I'm saying is I've never seen a girl hit a forehand with the tip pointed to the right like Agassi or Blake. They always seem to lay their wrist back early. I mean I could stand at the left side of Blake and not worry about him getting hit. But put most WTA women out there, and I would get nailed by the backswing it'd be so long and on the wrong side of her body. Why do us teaching pros out there let these young girls get away with such big swings?

From what i see. I think lot's of girls feel they can generate higher racquet speeds like that then with a straight racket preparation. Is it possible that it is because most girls are not as strong as men ? maybe because they tend to play with too big grips for their small hands, i think that limits hand relaxation wich creates racquet head speed like Henin...(what do ya think ?)
I have seen a lot of girls especially from south america play like that.

Now to your question of wether us pro's should let them get away with that, i would tell you it depends on your student and where she is with her tennis.
If she's been hitting like that for years i don't see a point of changing it since some top girls in the world play like that. So obviously it is not that technical point that will stop your student from reaching her full potential.
But again i think it depends on who you have in front of you...
Another idea i have is that maybe a lot of these girls (that have this to the left circular racket prep) have started playing tennis with adult racquets. I know Justine Henin started playing with a mini racquet on 18 meter courts in belgium. Since these are lighter they allow for more hand and arm relaxation. Tova

[julian]

Late contact

From what i see. I think lot's of girls feel they can generate higher racquet speeds like that then with a straight racket preparation. Is it possible that it is because most girls are not as strong as men ? maybe because they tend to play with too big grips for their small hands, i think that limits hand relaxation wich creates racquet head speed like Henin...(what do ya think ?)
I have seen a lot of girls especially from south america play like that.

Now to your question of wether us pro's should let them get away with that, i would tell you it depends on your student and where she is with her tennis.
If she's been hitting like that for years i don't see a point of changing it since some top girls in the world play like that. So obviously it is not that technical point that will stop your student from reaching her full potential.
But again i think it depends on who you have in front of you...
Another idea i have is that maybe a lot of these girls (that have this to the left circular racket prep) have started playing tennis with adult racquets. I know Justine Henin started playing with a mini racquet on 18 meter courts in belgium. Since these are lighter they allow for more hand and arm relaxation. Tova

Hi,
the point is that what you call a straight racket preparation implies VERY OFTEN
a late contact.Therefore it maybe inefficient.
Imagine a game of doubles on grass.
By the way:
what happened with a concept of hitting on rise?
julian
PS Some videos mentioned in the post above by uspta146749877
are worth watching as well.
julian

[hyperwarrior]

I think we have an answer from this article http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...uswomenFH.html

[mntlblok]

Been away for a bit with other interests, but getting into tennis again now.

I'll take a shot at it, but look forward to Brian's manifesto. It seems to me that the difference is that guys use the "loop" much like a whip or a rod tip, getting a very sudden change in racket tip direction, generating mucho angular momentum and racket head speed. It may be that the smaller/weaker hands and wrists of the ladies doesn't allow for such moves with the force that it applies to those body parts.

I reckon there's also the issue of simple strength difference that doesn't require a guy to take as big a backswing in order to generate as powerful a forward swing.

I look forward to Brian's better explanation. :-)

Kevin
Savannah

.... 67-

Excellent observations/questions! - most experts have largely missed the boat on this one, probably because the complete answer is definitely not obvious - I will refrain at this point because I'll be producing another manifesto (I mean stroke mechanics series), this time on the forehand in 2009 - still, interested to hear any explanations from the board members - BG