Return of Serve Footwork

[ralph]

Curious as to what the latest thinking is about return of serve footwork, especially on the forehand side. As a coach, I have been emphasizing neutral stance with a turn, load and step in approach. I have one player who only returns on the forehand side open stance. With the advent of semiwestern and western grips and open stance hitting, what are some guidelines to use regarding return footwork. How much do grip, ball height, ball speed, and stance preference play in footwork for the return.

Ralph

[julian]

Return of serve

Curious as to what the latest thinking is about return of serve footwork, especially on the forehand side. As a coach, I have been emphasizing neutral stance with a turn, load and step in approach. I have one player who only returns on the forehand side open stance. With the advent of semiwestern and western grips and open stance hitting, what are some guidelines to use regarding return footwork. How much do grip, ball height, ball speed, and stance preference play in footwork for the return.

Ralph

Ralph,
1.Please see an article by Bobby Bernstein.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/tour_strokes/bobby_bernstein/the_%20pro_return/the_%20pro_return.html

videos of different stances are shown at the pro level

2.Please see Interactive Forum about the footwork of Murray
some of my blogs as well under my name uspta146749877 as well.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1133

3.A return of serve of Venus Williams especially a seond serve return
is of interest as well-see her match of Nov.5 2008,Doha
You may see as well

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/serenawilliams/sw_forehand_return/sw_2nd_serve_deuce/sw_2nd_serve_deuce.html?SWFHRet2ndSDeuceRear1.mov

See that a step forward is a very small one.

4.see an uspta disc by Frank Pfister about return of serve.
The issue of avoiding a lateral step at the very beginning
is discussed
More details to come

5.Svetlana Kuznetsova very often does a lateral step when returning a serve-
see her match at Doha Nov.7 2008.

6.Another interesting metrics: a distance between bounce point and
a contact point

7.Typing "return of serve" in the search engine provides 10 items

[airforce1]

The big key for me is to move in to some extent. This ads an element of finer control to the aggressive or tough return.

Yes, you see them back up sometimes when there is a bigger or higher bouncing serve with no real threat of serious S&V. Even then, they move into the hit though.

[julian]

return of serve by Serena Williams

The big key for me is to move in to some extent. This ads an element of finer control to the aggressive or tough return.

Yes, you see them back up sometimes when there is a bigger or higher bouncing serve with no real threat of serious S&V. Even then, they move into the hit though.

Airforce2,
a return of serve of Venus Williams especially a seond serve return
is of interest as well-see her match of Nov.5 2008,Doha
You may see as well

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...DeuceRear1.mov

See that a step forward is a very small one
See

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/serenawilliams/sw_forehand_return/sw_2nd_serve_deuce/sw_2nd_serve_deuce.html?SWFHRet2ndSDeuceCourtLevelFront2.mov

and the beautiful dress

[airforce1]

Airforce2,
a return of serve of Venus Williams especially a seond serve return
is of interest as well-see her match of Nov.5 2008,Doha
You may see as well

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...DeuceRear1.mov

See that a step forward is a very small one
See

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/serenawilliams/sw_forehand_return/sw_2nd_serve_deuce/sw_2nd_serve_deuce.html?SWFHRet2ndSDeuceCourtLevelFront2.mov

and the beautiful dress

first link was bad, but in the second, it showed her pulled wide. You will see more lateral movement on wider serves usually. Also, I don't really consider the Williams sisters as models of consistency. They may be good to study if you want to get creative or if you happen to see them do something you like, but as a role model-- They wouldn't be in my top 50 choices.

[julian]

What do u mean?

first link was bad, but in the second, it showed her pulled wide. You will see more lateral movement on wider serves usually. Also, I don't really consider the Williams sisters as models of consistency. They may be good to study if you want to get creative or if you happen to see them do something you like, but as a role model-- They wouldn't be in my top 50 choices.

What do u mean "first link was bad"?
Even if it is bad u can go to the archive DIRECTLY-you have
the name of the file

[julian]

Williams sisters

first link was bad, but in the second, it showed her pulled wide. You will see more lateral movement on wider serves usually. Also, I don't really consider the Williams sisters as models of consistency. They may be good to study if you want to get creative or if you happen to see them do something you like, but as a role model-- They wouldn't be in my top 50 choices.

However they are very efficient
Venus in the final of Doha

[ralph]

Still Unclear about return footwork

After viewing Murray's return footwork, I see a distinct transfer of weight from back foot to front foot. This is the model that I prefer. In coaching, however, how insistent should I be in teaching this model. Because of instruction in the open stance, many players are inclined to return with an open stance. Should I press for a transfer method or evaluate each player's return success and decide accordingly. An assistant that I have thinks open stance returning is okay; he just emphasizes the rotational aspect.

Ralph

[uspta146749877]

Lateral Movement

After viewing Murray's return footwork, I see a distinct transfer of weight from back foot to front foot. This is the model that I prefer. In coaching, however, how insistent should I be in teaching this model. Because of instruction in the open stance, many players are inclined to return with an open stance. Should I press for a transfer method or evaluate each player's return success and decide accordingly. An assistant that I have thinks open stance returning is okay; he just emphasizes the rotational aspect.

Ralph

Ralph,

1.See "Singles strategies and patterns of play" by Hank Pfister
uspta competitive player development conference-a disc available
from www.uspta.org for some discussion of return of serve.

2.As far as your question about a transfer of weight goes
think about a return of serve on a add side against a backhand of returner.
Do u always want to use backhand or may be sometimes forehand ( especially clay)?
At a high level a forehand is used SOMETIMES instead of a backhand for this scenario.
However a transfer of weight IS NOT forward at the beginning for this scenario
due to a necessary footwork-see Moya at archives
However you may consider this scenario to be an exception

3.Moya hits some returns with a neutral stance on a backhand side

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/carlosmoya/cm_backhand_return/cm_2nd_serve_ad/cm_2nd_serve_ad.html?CMBHRet2ndSAdCourtLevelFront.mov

4.A lot depends on a level you coach.
You may answer differently if at 3.0 NTRP comparing to 5.0 NTRP.
You may design serve return drills based on level of students.

5.It comes without saying that a lot depends on quality/power/placement of serve.
Time available for return is obviously a function of above.
Some adjustment of strategy may depend on a location of serve

6.The next question is : is return of serve to NETRAULIZE or ATTACK.
You may qualify an answer depending whether it is a FIRST or a SECOND SERVE

7.Murray has some tendencies based on the fact that grass was/has been his PRIMARY
surface.His game is optimized/most suitable for quicker surfaces.
To some extent his return of serve is optimized for these surfaces

julian uspta 27873

[airforce1]

I don't usually insist on a change if the player is doing a good job with what they have. Personally I think this is where innovation comes from. In that case I would just create regular exposure to more accepted practices.

Now, the usual situation would be that the performance is not up to par if there is no wt transfer into the shot, so then I would surely work towards this end. (getting weight transfer)

[uspta146749877]

The devil is ...

I don't usually insist on a change if the player is doing a good job with what they have. Personally I think this is where innovation comes from. In that case I would just create regular exposure to more accepted practices.

Now, the usual situation would be that the performance is not up to par if there is no wt transfer into the shot, so then I would surely work towards this end. (getting weight transfer)

The devil is in the phrase " more accepted practices"

[airforce1]

The devil is in the phrase " more accepted practices"

I thought you were all about the more accepted practices. LoL.
Are you looking to get innovative Dr J?

[ralph]

High Ball/Low Ball returning

Just one more thought about footwork on the return. If my understanding is correct, John Yandell has recommended the neutral stance for lower balls and open stance for higher balls. If that is the case, should'nt returning follow the same guideline? Lastly, thanks to those who responded to my thread. I have purchased the Pfister video.

[julian]

John Yandell

Just one more thought about footwork on the return. If my understanding is correct, John Yandell has recommended the neutral stance for lower balls and open stance for higher balls. If that is the case, should'nt returning follow the same guideline? Lastly, thanks to those who responded to my thread. I have purchased the Pfister video.

Hi,
couple of loose thoughts/questions about your post above:


1.The next very obvious question related to your guidelines is:
is a returner able to decide whether a ball flying at him is going to be
high bouncing or low bouncing?
Sometimes there are some cues about a height of a bounce coming from a toss of a server or a previous statistics
from a match but it is NOT always the case.
If so it is NOT EASY to make a decision between NEUTRAL and OPEN STANCE
in a split second.
It is NOT obvious how to coach to make this decision VERY QUICKLY.


2.Frank Pfister in his presentation advises AGAINST an open stance on a deuce side for (righty) players using a western grip ( probably he means semi-western grip holders as well).
Pfister provides a biomechanical justification for his guidelines.
The justification makes sense to me especially for quicker surfaces.
As always pros provide exceptions-see a video of Agassi in an article by
Bernstein on return of serve.

Frank Pfister suggests to avoid a lateral step for a backhand return on a deuce side as well.

As you may see his guidelines are a bit different than provided,for example, by airforce1 below.

3.The next question is whether a set-up for open stance is slower
comparing to a neutral stance on a forehand side.The point is that the first
lateral step for an open step IS NOT towards a ball.
IF IT IS SLOWER there is a trade-off because of time spent for a open stance
set up.

4.Could you provide a reference at which the John's opinion (see your post) is stated/written?


julian usptapro 27873

PS Clarification:julian and uspta146749877 are the SAME PERSON.
Sorry for a possible confusion.

[airforce1]

To go neutral, it needs to be on the slow side to get more of a set up. It works good for accuracy and driving power.

I like open stance for time crunched shots (like returning big serves) and deception.