Kick Serve

[llll]

great articles. i have been trying to develop a "kicker/twist "for years.i am just getting to where i can get the ball to jump and penetrate. more topspin and/or slice topspin.i try to hit 7 to 2 on the ball but end up with the ball bouncing up or left. try as i might i cant seem to get the ball to "twist".guess i am not getting to the left side of the ball . any suggestions? i wish your articles had more slo motion visuals of the arm and racquet into/at /post contact.

[uspta9311799]

Twist Help

1. Make sure you have strong continental grip

2. Toss more extremely to the left, even past 11 oclock to learn the left to right brushing sensation. As you get the feel, bring the ball back towards 11.

3. Increase your lower back flexibility with a stretching program and if you have no back problems start arching your back more. If you are not flexible with a supple body, the twist action will elude you. Flexibility is incredibly underappreciated by players trying to learn a kick. If you don't have a flexible body (back as well as shoulder joint), you will never achieve the range of motion necessary to get twist; you will hit topspin slice only. Some players spend years with a bucket of balls when what they really need is some good yoga stretches.

4. Make sure you are getting your elbow back behind your ear in the trophy and the buttscratch. If your elbow drifts to the right (ie the hips and trunk opening too much), you will get slice top rather than twist. Your hip must drag and your hips and shoulders must be very closed at contact to get the twist sidespin action.

Good luck,
Chris

[llll]

thanks

[bottle]

In Response to Chris Lewit

Chris's post may be the last word on the subject of players who "spend years with a bucket of balls when what they really need is some good yoga stretches."

On the other hand, I can't STAND the prospect of missing out on all the shiny new toys you have offered in your great articles even if the final conclusion of all my personal experiments is about to emerge right here right now in bold capital letters: BOTTLE, YOU'RE NOT FLEXIBLE ENOUGH. YOU SHOULDN'T EVEN TRY TO HIT KICK. BE HAPPY WITH LOW SLICE, TOPSPIN SLICE, FLAT, AND YOUR "JUST-SPIN-THE-BALL-IN" CHANGEUP.

Good topspin slice, however, might be a new development for which I thank you.

On the bigger question, the truth does matter, but I want to be the one to decide. It's not as if I've never hit a kick serve in my life. What if body and shoulder joint are marginally flexible and the chronic injuries of age are
SLIGHT. Kick is elusive, yes, but not impossible. I've won points with it-- a few.

I shall follow the advice by spending more time with my niece's book, THE ATHLETE'S GUIDE TO YOGA by Sage Rountree, Velo Press, and will try to talk her into designing a few special stretches for me if I can get her away from the entire UNC football team.

[bottle]

Henin's Kick

Is it possible just to converse, with nothing on the line? I believe in a certain amount of talk—not too much or little—and would always like to speak in person with somebody as good as a Chris Lewit, a Brian Gordon, a Don Broussard (and others), but most often that simply isn’t possible.

Chris, my interest in serving technique goes beyond what I personally can do. And, like anyone, I don’t know exactly what I can and can’t do. Overestimation, underestimation—it’s probably right in there.

Most recently, I’ve studied TP videos of Justine Henin since I am a confirmed platform stancer and got tired of always looking at Roger and Pete, and thought maybe Justine’s motion would be easier to emulate.

First, her feet are quite close together. Then, on a second serve, she lifts her front toes. Without her even trying, the foot pivots parallel to the other one and down she goes, on a slant, I would say, getting upward slope of shoulders established so quickly that she can then truck forward with hip already out for the double-legged blast which is vertical in nature, I believe. Because she’s already going fast, horizontally, the verticality of her legs leads to your “nailed” landing a foot or a foot-and-a half into the court before she scampers back to a split-step on the baseline.

My first question: Does the little heel pivot of front toes back take care of your hip lag requirement? For when feet are splayed, and you go down, there is natural rotation backward, about to uncock naturally the other way. On the other hand, with foot in the new, parallel position, the body is free to turn back even farther and both legs are doing the same thing more, and it therefore may be easier to get more late body bend on the fly. (Pete and Roger take most of theirs much earlier, no?) . So hips are going to begin turning later—or is this wishful thinking and am I a dreamer?

So that’s my first question. Can one keep closed for longer this way while getting an uninhibited jump that feels great? It reminds me of my pinpoint experiments while retaining advantages of a platform such as having less overall to do.

My second question: Justine has extremely low elbow in her trophy position because she’s about to throw it as part of the acceleration and wants extra distance up the runway. Of course this means that butt scratch will occur on the fly.

What do you think about this? In most of the videos in “Constructing the Kick Serve,” your skillful students also seem to be using their elbow in accelerative ways rather than passively twisting or raising it up. An exception might be the fellow hitting over the combination fence and wall. There the racket tip points back, next moves closer into body, opposite of the kind of throw I’m talking about.

What am I to make of this? Is getting racket parallel to baseline or more going to help the transition from topspin slice to actual kick? One sacrifices racket head speed, I’m thinking. If toss, late lean, amount of lean, and accelerative throw of elbow in toward body median could all be as perfect as Justine’s, why then a person might achieve their goal.

I know everybody thinks I’m too detailed, but it’s only to ask questions: I just want to jump into the serve off of the ball pads of both feet and scrape the heck out of the ball from the left side.

Perfection of toss and Yoga stretching, I know. But what about “throwing” rather than “placing” the elbow high. If learning, should arm acceleration come from triceps alone?
Could one add elbow throw later, and how, so far to left?

Sorry or thanks—whichever.

Bottle

[bottle]

Anyone?

"

[bottle]

?

Bungalow Bill?

[bottle]

?

Bungalo Bill?

[bottle]

Kuznetsova's Kick

Kuznetsova is even more simple. She STARTS with feet parallel. And no matter how far left these players can arrange themselves they hit the ball over their nose. In this sense they all are seals. But they hit out front a bit, too.

Svetlana's elbow is on the shoulders line in trophy position. She has a lot of grip with wrist slightly turned in so that hitting surface is slightly open at address.

First she lifts a straight arm farther up than Justine-- the racket tip is parallel with tossing arm till ball release. Then she keys the racket with body only.
Next she keys the racket from arm. Then elbow goes up into the essential freeze position for kick serves, putting upper arm almost parallel to court. Next she will get racket length a bit less than parallel to court with arm fully extended so that racket can move 90 degrees almost from hand action alone and still be not quite vertical as strings scrape the ball.

The motion of elbow lifting is only accelerative in the sense that legs are in the process of firing. So any independent lift of the elbow just then must add to the total speed. Still, taken by itself, it cannot be kinetic motion. It's literally a keying or "wind-up."

At the end of this wind-up (first freeze position), the upper arm is parallel to the court. At the end of arm extension (second freeze position) it is the racket that is parallel to the court (or almost). At contact, the racket is perpendicular to the court or almost (third freeze position). What happened from freeze 2 to freeze 3? Hand action plus a small beginning of arm motion to the right.

Freeze 1: hips right over feet with all in flight. A great slope in lower back (= yoga stretches). Freeze 2: most of the slope is gone (but not all). Freeze 3 (contact): the slope is gone but there's still some leftward lean.

By freeze 1, the shoulder is high
By freeze 2, the shoulder is even higher
By freeze 3, the shoulder is no lower

Well might someone ask why I try to interpret videos that anyone can see himself at any time in "pro gallery." And here is the answer.

Ordinary athletes may view English language tennis instruction as a code they're either going to ignore or decipher. But do they understand that photography and films of athletic motion are also written in code? Anyone who has ever met a medical illustrator should understand that film has limits.

Therefore (if you choose to excuse my pontification), there should be 20 code-busters, not one, working on the second serve videos of Henin and Kuznetsova.

[uspta9311799]

Kick help

I'm sorry but I had trouble understanding all of your post. Hope this helps:

The bottom line: the elbow needs to be farther to the left (when looking from behind) to get more twist.

1. I haven't studied Henin very much, but I don't think there is a connection between toe movement and hip drag. Focus on the hips--not the toes. The foot position (closed stance) may, however, help turn the hips.

2. The elbow should not be close to the ribs in the trophy; the shoulders should more or less, make a straight line. I don't think a lower elbow gives you more runway. In my opinion, the ultimate effect of a low elbow is a decrease in acceleration and power, and less kick.

3. In my opinion, the elbow acts as the axis for acceleration of the tricep. The shoulder throw is also involved, but for me, I focus on the critical tricep snap.

Feel free to email me chris@chrislewit.com for more dialogue.

Cheers,
Chris

Is it possible just to converse, with nothing on the line? I believe in a certain amount of talk—not too much or little—and would always like to speak in person with somebody as good as a Chris Lewit, a Brian Gordon, a Don Broussard (and others), but most often that simply isn’t possible.

Chris, my interest in serving technique goes beyond what I personally can do. And, like anyone, I don’t know exactly what I can and can’t do. Overestimation, underestimation—it’s probably right in there.

Most recently, I’ve studied TP videos of Justine Henin since I am a confirmed platform stancer and got tired of always looking at Roger and Pete, and thought maybe Justine’s motion would be easier to emulate.

First, her feet are quite close together. Then, on a second serve, she lifts her front toes. Without her even trying, the foot pivots parallel to the other one and down she goes, on a slant, I would say, getting upward slope of shoulders established so quickly that she can then truck forward with hip already out for the double-legged blast which is vertical in nature, I believe. Because she’s already going fast, horizontally, the verticality of her legs leads to your “nailed” landing a foot or a foot-and-a half into the court before she scampers back to a split-step on the baseline.

My first question: Does the little heel pivot of front toes back take care of your hip lag requirement? For when feet are splayed, and you go down, there is natural rotation backward, about to uncock naturally the other way. On the other hand, with foot in the new, parallel position, the body is free to turn back even farther and both legs are doing the same thing more, and it therefore may be easier to get more late body bend on the fly. (Pete and Roger take most of theirs much earlier, no?) . So hips are going to begin turning later—or is this wishful thinking and am I a dreamer?

So that’s my first question. Can one keep closed for longer this way while getting an uninhibited jump that feels great? It reminds me of my pinpoint experiments while retaining advantages of a platform such as having less overall to do.

My second question: Justine has extremely low elbow in her trophy position because she’s about to throw it as part of the acceleration and wants extra distance up the runway. Of course this means that butt scratch will occur on the fly.

What do you think about this? In most of the videos in “Constructing the Kick Serve,” your skillful students also seem to be using their elbow in accelerative ways rather than passively twisting or raising it up. An exception might be the fellow hitting over the combination fence and wall. There the racket tip points back, next moves closer into body, opposite of the kind of throw I’m talking about.

What am I to make of this? Is getting racket parallel to baseline or more going to help the transition from topspin slice to actual kick? One sacrifices racket head speed, I’m thinking. If toss, late lean, amount of lean, and accelerative throw of elbow in toward body median could all be as perfect as Justine’s, why then a person might achieve their goal.

I know everybody thinks I’m too detailed, but it’s only to ask questions: I just want to jump into the serve off of the ball pads of both feet and scrape the heck out of the ball from the left side.

Perfection of toss and Yoga stretching, I know. But what about “throwing” rather than “placing” the elbow high. If learning, should arm acceleration come from triceps alone?
Could one add elbow throw later, and how, so far to left?

Sorry or thanks—whichever.

Bottle

[uspta9311799]

Kuznetsova

I think Kuznetsova is a good model, and she was Spanish trained. She hits a real kick unlike many ladies on the tour.

There is a major movement on the WTA and in national federations to say that girls are not strong enough to hit a real kick, and Kuznetsova is at least one example that counters that claim.

Chris

Kuznetsova is even more simple. She STARTS with feet parallel. And no matter how far left these players can arrange themselves they hit the ball over their nose. In this sense they all are seals. But they hit out front a bit, too.

Svetlana's elbow is on the shoulders line in trophy position. She has a lot of grip with wrist slightly turned in so that hitting surface is slightly open at address.

First she lifts a straight arm farther up than Justine-- the racket tip is parallel with tossing arm till ball release. Then she keys the racket with body only.
Next she keys the racket from arm. Then elbow goes up into the essential freeze position for kick serves, putting upper arm almost parallel to court. Next she will get racket length a bit less than parallel to court with arm fully extended so that racket can move 90 degrees almost from hand action alone and still be not quite vertical as strings scrape the ball.

The motion of elbow lifting is only accelerative in the sense that legs are in the process of firing. So any independent lift of the elbow just then must add to the total speed. Still, taken by itself, it cannot be kinetic motion. It's literally a keying or "wind-up."

At the end of this wind-up (first freeze position), the upper arm is parallel to the court. At the end of arm extension (second freeze position) it is the racket that is parallel to the court (or almost). At contact, the racket is perpendicular to the court or almost (third freeze position). What happened from freeze 2 to freeze 3? Hand action plus a small beginning of arm motion to the right.

Freeze 1: hips right over feet with all in flight. A great slope in lower back (= yoga stretches). Freeze 2: most of the slope is gone (but not all). Freeze 3 (contact): the slope is gone but there's still some leftward lean.

By freeze 1, the shoulder is high
By freeze 2, the shoulder is even higher
By freeze 3, the shoulder is no lower

Well might someone ask why I try to interpret videos that anyone can see himself at any time in "pro gallery." And here is the answer.

Ordinary athletes may view English language tennis instruction as a code they're either going to ignore or decipher. But do they understand that photography and films of athletic motion are also written in code? Anyone who has ever met a medical illustrator should understand that film has limits.

Therefore (if you choose to excuse my pontification), there should be 20 code-busters, not one, working on the second serve videos of Henin and Kuznetsova.

[uspta9311799]

Don't Give Up

Bottle,

Don't give up on learning the kick. If you follow the system, you can learn a twist, even at an older age. But it will take significant practice and time.

I think you are getting bogged down in extraneous details. I have offered my system and checkpoints so that people like yourself can focus in on the elements that really matter when trying to learn the kick.

If you use my system as a roadmap, you will not get lost on the journey--and you will get to your destination faster.

Good luck,
Chris

Chris's post may be the last word on the subject of players who "spend years with a bucket of balls when what they really need is some good yoga stretches."

On the other hand, I can't STAND the prospect of missing out on all the shiny new toys you have offered in your great articles even if the final conclusion of all my personal experiments is about to emerge right here right now in bold capital letters: BOTTLE, YOU'RE NOT FLEXIBLE ENOUGH. YOU SHOULDN'T EVEN TRY TO HIT KICK. BE HAPPY WITH LOW SLICE, TOPSPIN SLICE, FLAT, AND YOUR "JUST-SPIN-THE-BALL-IN" CHANGEUP.

Good topspin slice, however, might be a new development for which I thank you.

On the bigger question, the truth does matter, but I want to be the one to decide. It's not as if I've never hit a kick serve in my life. What if body and shoulder joint are marginally flexible and the chronic injuries of age are
SLIGHT. Kick is elusive, yes, but not impossible. I've won points with it-- a few.

I shall follow the advice by spending more time with my niece's book, THE ATHLETE'S GUIDE TO YOGA by Sage Rountree, Velo Press, and will try to talk her into designing a few special stretches for me if I can get her away from the entire UNC football team.

[uspta146749877]

cobra serve

I think Kuznetsova is a good model, and she was Spanish trained. She hits a real kick unlike many ladies on the tour.

There is a major movement on the WTA and in national federations to say that girls are not strong enough to hit a real kick, and Kuznetsova is at least one example that counters that claim.

Chris

Any opinions about a cobra serve drill?
see

http://www.thetennischannel.com/sys_media/flash/vt_omc2.html

Click the icon cobra serve on your left

[jeffreycounts]

Any opinions about a cobra serve drill?
see

http://www.thetennischannel.com/sys_media/flash/vt_omc2.html

Click the icon cobra serve on your left

Personally, I think it's a lousy drill. The lack of a "loose" arm isn't what holds most people back. Instead its a poor racket drop ("no 'buttscratch' position) and a lack of the tricep extension that Chris talks about. Or a lack of pronation. I think the thinking behind the "Cobra drill" is too common - the idea that if you are just "whip" and "snap" more you will get a better serve. But I think Chris' developmental model, with the critical body positions and stretches and movements is the real key to a better serve - not just simply "whipping" the arm more.

I also think it's a lousy drill because you must rotate the shoulders upward and get a deep racket drop first before the explosive motion upward. With that Cobra drill, the arm becomes the focus right away and the arm should not be the focus in the initial stages of the motion.

Just my 2 cents.

[lgvargas]

Cobra Serve

I think the "cobra serve" is an excellent alternative/method to taking your racquet back on the serve. Most articles and lessons taught on the serve seldom talk about how best to take the racquet back to the trophy position, just prior to the leg extension and racquet drop. Even in Chris Lewit's excellent article on the "kick serve", I don't believe he mentions how best to take the racquet back-most instruction does not. Personally, I have struggled for years on hitting a high level serve because of my take back and have tried everything! I just recently saw the "Cobra Serve" on the Tennis Channel by Dial Jones and was immediately intrigued and cautiously optimistic about giving it a try. In all the years (over 30) of playing tennis, reading books, watching videos, taking lessons, attending tennis camps, viewing live pro tournaments, ect., I have never heard of the "Cobra Technique". I gave it a try and I am happy to say that it clicked for me and feels great! My serve has improved significantly because I now can apply speed and spin with a loose, relaxed, fluid arm, forearm, and wrist, and I can coordinate the arm motion and racquet drop with the rest of my body much more effectively.

I personally think that Andy Roddick's serve is a poor model with the abbreviated motion-too rigid and tight for most people. Ivo Karlovic motion is much better to emulate for the average player , along with Roger Federer.

The "cobra serve" is definitely worth trying out if you have struggled like I have with creating a loose, relaxed arm with the proper deep racquet drop to create an effective, penetrating serve with speed and the critical spin component. Don't underestimate the value of trying the cobra method-it was of great value to me and has been the key missing component for taking my game to the next level. Also, you won't be able to get a deep "butt scratch" position on your serve without a "loose" hitting arm. The cobra serve gives me that looseness, elasticity, and fluditity I had been missing. Obviously, you still have to coordinate your other body parts on the serve, particularly your knee bend/extension and forearm/wrist pronation to hit a solid serve. By the way, I am a solid 4.5 tournament level player.