Interactive Forum: July 2008 History of the Windshield Wiper Forehand

[EricMatuszewski]

Tennisplayer brings us yet more really cool footage that begs the question what is "Modern" technique.

I'm at the USTA Billie Jean King National Tennis Center today watching one of my students who just won his last nights match 6-0, 6-0 so I don't have much time to comment on all this coolness (at least not in an interesting way) right now. But, I will when I get back, till then, go for it and fill up this thread!

Bill Tilden Wiper Forehand




Pancho Gonzales Wiper Forehand

[EricMatuszewski]

QuickTime Versions

Bill Tilden Wiper Forehand




Pancho Gonzales Wiper Forehand

[airforce1]

Maybe I need to learn more about the WW FH, but the Tilden vid shows a pretty flat swing, with the racket face actually opening slightly on and immediately after impact, before rolling over near extension. Can't see how that is a ww and not even sure it would have much TS with a swing plane that flat, but I'm open minded.

Help me out here, as I probably don't know this shot like I should and this vid proves that to me.

[jgmissiontennis]

jgmissiontennis

I like to teach a windshield wiper topspin forehand by having the student stand close to the fence. Then have the student pin a ball against the fence so that the racquet face and ball are below their knee. With the racquet face parallel to the fence I have the student quickly lift their racquet straight up putting topspin on the ball. This shows the student the abrupt racquet (fence lift) lifting motion of the windshield wiper topspin forehand. I do not see that quick lift in either of the film clips.

[uspta146749877]

Frame by frame?

Maybe I need to learn more about the WW FH, but the Tilden vid shows a pretty flat swing, with the racket face actually opening slightly on and immediately after impact, before rolling over near extension. Can't see how that is a ww and not even sure it would have much TS with a swing plane that flat, but I'm open minded.

Help me out here, as I probably don't know this shot like I should and this vid proves that to me.

Did u go frame by frame?

[airforce1]

Did u go frame by frame?

I sure did. The frame at CP had the face slightly open, as it was the frame just after cp. To me the swing continued to extend past cp, then roll over near the end of extension.

I thought the WW FH, the right to left action was happening at CP and the whole swing path was at least a little steeper than the vid?

[johnyandell]

Take a look at the king of the wiper here:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_forehand/rogerfederer_fh_arm_action/rogerfederer_fh_arm_action.html?FedererFHArmActionSide1.mov

Remember that topspin is not a function of how low the racket starts--in most cases it's barely below the ball. It's more the angle of the upward diagonal in the swing.

We haven't quantified how the wiper creates this or increases it, but from my own experience as well as the study of the pro video and the reports of many high level players, it does.

In fact the rise of the racket face and the turn look about the same to me in all 3. There's a reason they all did it on these given balls.

The Tilden video has the racket to my eye square at contact--but the slight mishit opens the face or pushes it back slightly thereafter.

[stroke]

I think one of the things about the WW FH that seperates Tilden and Pancho from the modern WW FH is the angle on the racquet face just after contact. Jeff Counts may be the expert on this, but he always points out the racquet face on the modern WW FH stays facing the target throughout the WW(rainbow) motion. He has posted several videos and written more than on piece on this. Tilden and Pancho both turn their racquet over. Their strings are facing the ground after contact as the racquet goes to the finish side of their body. Also, clearly to me, Tilden and Gonzales lack the powerful uppercut(generated through the legs and torso) of the modern FH.

[airforce1]

Take a look at the king of the wiper here:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_forehand/rogerfederer_fh_arm_action/rogerfederer_fh_arm_action.html?FedererFHArmActionSide1.mov

Remember that topspin is not a function of how low the racket starts--in most cases it's barely below the ball. It's more the angle of the upward diagonal in the swing.

In fact the rise of the racket face and the turn look about the same to me in all 3. There's a reason they all did it on these given balls.

The Tilden video has the racket to my eye square at contact--but the slight mishit opens the face or pushes it back slightly thereafter.

Ok, I guess I'm just not seeing it the same. No big deal.
Just looks like in the Fed vid you added, I can see the face breaking across at CP with the acceleration of the WW. With the Tilden vid, I get 3-4 frames of extension after CP with no change in face before the wrist rolls over at what looks to me to be full extension. That FH looks to me to be just a FH drive with little topspin. Given the extension and the way we saw the face open at impact, makes me wonder if there was much if any TS on that shot, what most of us would call a flat shot.

[johnyandell]

One difference is the Tilden footage is probably 125 frames/sec (old movie film) so you can't compare exactly. 1 Fed frame equals 4 Tilden frames.

My point isn't who has the greatest windshield wiper, or how fast or how much spin. One is a stretch forehand, one is a return, and one is an inside groundstroke--you can't evaluate those issues on one ball.

My point is that even in the days of different racket technology, great players used the same swing shapes we think of as "modern" and most likely for the same purposes.

[airforce1]

One difference is the Tilden footage is probably 125 frames/sec (old movie film) so you can't compare exactly. 1 Fed frame equals 4 Tilden frames.

My point isn't who has the greatest windshield wiper, or how fast or how much spin. One is a stretch forehand, one is a return, and one is an inside groundstroke--you can't evaluate those issues on one ball.

My point is that even in the days of different racket technology, great players used the same swing shapes we think of as "modern" and most likely for the same purposes.

Once again, John, Thanks for your patience.

[EricMatuszewski]

So my student lost in the round of 32 to a guy who was an inferior mover, not a very good server and didn't have much of a backhand.

But guess what he did have.

A Heavy forehand!

result: 6-0, 6-3 to the guy with the heavy forehand.

This was the best thing actually that could have happened as far as my students development. . .

I've only been working with this guy for a couple of weeks as a paid sparring partner.

But now it's turned into a technical trainer and project (give this kid a better forehand than he got beat with) relationship.

So after 2 days of work he's made an major turnaround on his forehand. Going from full Western with a high ear level ending to a semi-western with a beside the shoulder level ending.

The heaviness of his forehand has improved greatly (now his ball "jumps" when it hits the court) as has his first flight ball speed.

I'm including some jpegs to see before and afters

How does this relate to the Tilden, Gonzales footage?

I believe that this departure from "over the shoulder" finishing, creates a different quality ball which in some cases was advantageous with a heavy narrow wooden racket. The great players of the past no doubt figured this out, however were discouraged from doing this on every forehand because of the chance of mishitting and the premium on not loosing ball speed.

With the lower weight and wider stiffer rackets we have now it's no surprise that the "windsheild wiper" is so ubiquitous.

Check out the change my student made in 2 days!

With the blue shirt, was @ the U.S. Open (western grip and "wrap around neck" ending). On Saturday the 12th.

In the white shorts is three days later Tuesday the 15th.

Despite having played for 11 years and having spent probably around 50k on tennis training, no one had ever succeeded in changing this.

A photo of Marat is included to compare the new finish.

[uspta146749877]

I cannot see videos

So my student lost in the round of 32 to a guy who was an inferior mover, not a very good server and didn't have much of a backhand.

But guess what he did have.

A Heavy forehand!

result: 6-0, 6-3 to the guy with the heavy forehand.

This was the best thing actually that could have happened as far as my students development. . .

I've only been working with this guy for a couple of weeks as a paid sparring partner.

But now it's turned into a technical trainer and project (give this kid a better forehand than he got beat with) relationship.

So after 2 days of work he's made an major turnaround on his forehand. Going from full Western with a high ear level ending to a semi-western with a beside the shoulder level ending.

The heaviness of his forehand has improved greatly (now his ball "jumps" when it hits the court) as has his first flight ball speed.

I'm including some jpegs to see before and afters

How does this relate to the Tilden, Gonzales footage?

I believe that this departure from "over the shoulder" finishing, creates a different quality ball which in some cases was advantageous with a heavy narrow wooden racket. The great players of the past no doubt figured this out, however were discouraged from doing this on every forehand because of the chance of mishitting and the premium on not loosing ball speed.

With the lower weight and wider stiffer rackets we have now it's no surprise that the "windsheild wiper" is so ubiquitous.

Check out the change my student made in 2 days!

With the blue shirt, was @ the U.S. Open (western grip and "wrap around neck" ending). On Saturday the 12th.

In the white shorts is three days later Tuesday the 15th.

Despite having played for 11 years and having spent probably around 50k on tennis training, no one had ever succeeded in changing this.

A photo of Marat is included to compare the new finish.

Trying to see the last video I got the message.Can someone help?
I know that there is a solution to load a jpeg to my laptop
but I would prefer to avoid it
------>
uspta146749877, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
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[uspta146749877]

Western vs semi-western

So my student lost in the round of 32 to a guy who was an inferior mover, not a very good server and didn't have much of a backhand.

But guess what he did have.

A Heavy forehand!

result: 6-0, 6-3 to the guy with the heavy forehand.

This was the best thing actually that could have happened as far as my students development. . .

I've only been working with this guy for a couple of weeks as a paid sparring partner.

But now it's turned into a technical trainer and project (give this kid a better forehand than he got beat with) relationship.

So after 2 days of work he's made an major turnaround on his forehand. Going from full Western with a high ear level ending to a semi-western with a beside the shoulder level ending.

The heaviness of his forehand has improved greatly (now his ball "jumps" when it hits the court) as has his first flight ball speed.

I'm including some jpegs to see before and afters

How does this relate to the Tilden, Gonzales footage?

I believe that this departure from "over the shoulder" finishing, creates a different quality ball which in some cases was advantageous with a heavy narrow wooden racket. The great players of the past no doubt figured this out, however were discouraged from doing this on every forehand because of the chance of mishitting and the premium on not loosing ball speed.

With the lower weight and wider stiffer rackets we have now it's no surprise that the "windsheild wiper" is so ubiquitous.

Check out the change my student made in 2 days!

With the blue shirt, was @ the U.S. Open (western grip and "wrap around neck" ending). On Saturday the 12th.

In the white shorts is three days later Tuesday the 15th.

Despite having played for 11 years and having spent probably around 50k on tennis training, no one had ever succeeded in changing this.

A photo of Marat is included to compare the new finish.

I am looking for a good article at tennisplayer comparing western to semi western forehand as a choice for a 12 year old junior

[EricMatuszewski]

I'd recommend trying to get a kid out of full western as soon as possible and over to a semi-western or semi-western/eastern.

Just as general advice.

Kids will tend to favor the western simply because it works easier on the avg ball they face (at or above head level).

Sorry the pics are not easy to download, maybe one of the tech guys can help. Aaron? You out there?