Interactive Forum: July 2008 History of the Windshield Wiper Forehand

[uspta146749877]

Scientic base?

I'd recommend trying to get a kid out of full western as soon as possible and over to a semi-western or semi-western/eastern.

Just as general advice.

Kids will tend to favor the western simply because it works easier on the avg ball they face (at or above head level).

Sorry the pics are not easy to download, maybe one of the tech guys can help. Aaron? You out there?

Is any good justification for a switch?
I meant scientific in the ttle ( I cannot fix it)
Is a ball faster for a semi-western? Your previous post implied that.
I know coaches who prefer western over semi-western

[EricMatuszewski]

I can only speak to my experience that on average I see players are able to hit the ball with more velocity with a less western grip.

I've seen some exceptions of course, but on the avg, Semi=more air speed.

The other major disadvantages are:

Increased difficulty in transitioning to a volley grip.

Increased difficulty in handling low slices. I think Landsdorp speaks about this in one of his articles. look it up.

[uspta146749877]

An interview with RL

I'd recommend trying to get a kid out of full western as soon as possible and over to a semi-western or semi-western/eastern.

Just as general advice.

Kids will tend to favor the western simply because it works easier on the avg ball they face (at or above head level).

Sorry the pics are not easy to download, maybe one of the tech guys can help. Aaron? You out there?

I have problems with a voice of an interview with
RL
in

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/famouscoach/robert_lansdorp/lansdorp_forehand_images/lansdorp_forehand.html

Any help?

[uspta146749877]

A forehand aricle by RL

I can only speak to my experience that on average I see players are able to hit the ball with more velocity with a less western grip.

I've seen some exceptions of course, but on the avg, Semi=more air speed.

The other major disadvantages are:

Increased difficulty in transitioning to a volley grip.

Increased difficulty in handling low slices. I think Landsdorp speaks about this in one of his articles. look it up.

Do u mean
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/..._forehand.html ?

[EricMatuszewski]

Yea that one should work

You don't need a sound bite. Just read.

Robert re-publishes his belief on flatter grips so much that "use a flat grip" should be his middle name.

On a special note Pete Sampras talks a good deal about Robert in his new autobiography.

Good luck with your tennis.

Eric

[uspta146749877]

Thank you

You don't need a sound bite. Just read.

Robert re-publishes his belief on flatter grips so much that "use a flat grip" should be his middle name.

On a special note Pete Sampras talks a good deal about Robert in his new autobiography.

Good luck with your tennis.

Eric

Eric,
I have a lesson scheduled for Thursday this week to convert
a junior from a western grip to a semi-western.
A student is 12 year old.
I started coaching this particular student a month ago.
A western grip is a leftover from someone else.
If u can warn me about any traps/dangers I can meet I would really
appreciate it.I am a certified USPTA pro but a certification
did NOT help a lot on this particular subject
julian
PS
I read already an article in the book entitled "World-class tennis technique"
on forehands by Crespo and Higueras

[uspta146749877]

semi-open stance

I'd recommend trying to get a kid out of full western as soon as possible and over to a semi-western or semi-western/eastern.

Just as general advice.

Kids will tend to favor the western simply because it works easier on the avg ball they face (at or above head level).

Sorry the pics are not easy to download, maybe one of the tech guys can help. Aaron? You out there?

Would u teach a semi-open stance combined with a semi-western grip?
I hope my question makes sense
The "True Alignment" article is of some help but NOT a lot

[uspta146749877]

tucked in elbow for power and stability

So my student lost in the round of 32 to a guy who was an inferior mover, not a very good server and didn't have much of a backhand.

But guess what he did have.

A Heavy forehand!

result: 6-0, 6-3 to the guy with the heavy forehand.

This was the best thing actually that could have happened as far as my students development. . .

I've only been working with this guy for a couple of weeks as a paid sparring partner.

But now it's turned into a technical trainer and project (give this kid a better forehand than he got beat with) relationship.

So after 2 days of work he's made an major turnaround on his forehand. Going from full Western with a high ear level ending to a semi-western with a beside the shoulder level ending.

The heaviness of his forehand has improved greatly (now his ball "jumps" when it hits the court) as has his first flight ball speed.

I'm including some jpegs to see before and afters

How does this relate to the Tilden, Gonzales footage?

I believe that this departure from "over the shoulder" finishing, creates a different quality ball which in some cases was advantageous with a heavy narrow wooden racket. The great players of the past no doubt figured this out, however were discouraged from doing this on every forehand because of the chance of mishitting and the premium on not loosing ball speed.

With the lower weight and wider stiffer rackets we have now it's no surprise that the "windsheild wiper" is so ubiquitous.

Check out the change my student made in 2 days!

With the blue shirt, was @ the U.S. Open (western grip and "wrap around neck" ending). On Saturday the 12th.

In the white shorts is three days later Tuesday the 15th.

Despite having played for 11 years and having spent probably around 50k on tennis training, no one had ever succeeded in changing this.

A photo of Marat is included to compare the new finish.

The ITF Avanced Coaches Manual
promotes tucked in elbow for power and stability for a semi-western based
forehand
For example

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/andreagassi/aa_forehand/aa_fh_center/aa_fh_center.html?AAFHCenterOpenStanceFront1.mov

Any comments?

[EricMatuszewski]

Julian,

Getting a student to make adjustments in his or her technique is the most rewarding job a coach can take on because (for most students) a technique change can make the largest impact on a players ability to win and thus succeed in the game of tennis. (there are other psychological benefits for both the student and coach, but lemme stick to the basics).

Changing technique is also however one of the most challenging jobs a coach can take on as well.

This is because motor engrams are harder to revise than to originally install.

The player will tend to reflexively do it the "old" way for a long time even though he or she is trying to do the action in a new pattern.

It takes a highly motivated student to persevere through the approx 30 hours of failures before a new coordinated mov't begins to emerge.

Also, in that period of Failing repeatedly, if the student is playing competitively, loses will further discourage whatever change your trying to make.

My best advice here I think is to make sure you have a very strong repore with your student and that you've spent all the time to make sure they trust that you can make a good decision when it comes to technique. This takes a long time generally.

As far as whether I agree that the change would benefit most players, I'd say in general, yes. The exceptions being if the player was exceptionally short in stature or if there was some kind of anatomical abnormality.

As far as elbow close to ribs or elbow away from ribs, I like the old school elbow away from ribs but I realize that it takes a while for most players to be able to control the less stable "elbow away" style.

Best Wishes.
Eric

[EricMatuszewski]

Elbow in, Elbow out

Another note on this,

On Higher balls, a tucked in elbow will cause the outgoing shot (presuming the player attempts to hit topspin) to actually be more of a sidespin.

I do agree that it's generally more stable to have the elbow closer to the ribs HOWEVER simple physics proves that the shorter the lever arm the lower the linear velocity.

So like so many other decisions in this wonderful sport, It's a trade off.

[bottle]

We Want a Revolution-- Now! Now!! NOW-W-W!!!!!

Why shouldn't tennis players be taught to be shoppers among the great models available to them right from the beginning?

Suppose the beginner does enough research straight off to find whom he admires? His teacher them helps him emulate this model, to whom he is in a sense apprenticed until he picks someone else.

Maybe he or she will be lucky enough to pick a great model straight off good enough to stick with for life. The instructor then teaches him basics of the game in slantwise fashion rather than the usual mind-numbing list of generic do's and don'ts.

Of course tennis is changing and new best models are always coming along. Make the student imitate them like Jonas Bjorkman hitting a Roger Federer forehand.

Don't let him get away with not having used heavy western grips, semiwesterns, easterns and even continental topspin forehands.

Eventually, the student should take over, becoming his own teacher and hopefully a wild innovator for the rest of his life just like Bill Tilden. But the teaching pros needn't worry. There will always be work for those who can serve as intermediary between stroke archives and an actual tennis court.

So what are some of the new, more inspiriting tools needed for this approach?
Computers. Photography units-- gotta learn when and where the filmstrips deceive. Theater classes, particularly in imitation and improvisation.

Instead of ten players in a line waiting to hit the same volley, the ten could wait to hit the volley of their master or someone else's (someone who lives inside of their computer).

Eventually, the teacher could teach the student to rebel. Or better, the student would teach himself to do that.

People would actually enjoy a website such as this one even more than they currently do. They would like old tennis books, too, like Arthur Ashe and Billy Jean King, who would read EVERYTHING.

Any new exposure would have immediate pertinence to their game.

Personally speaking, I've tried to hit forehands like Vic Braden, Stan Smith, Ivan Lendl, Ellsworth Vines, Stacy Austin, Don Budge, Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, Andre Gomez, Valerie Ziegenfuss and Roger Federer.

Many of these experiments lasted well over a year. The majority, however, produced shots worse than my own, which would be the forehand I was hitting after conventional instruction and five years experience.

Two were better however. Those would be the Ziegenfuss and the Federer although they could not be more different.

Isn't the big point here pretty simple? It is a self-destructive set of mind that says, after five years, "This is my forehand and I will never change it beyond a tweak here or there."

[uspta146749877]

Ebow position again

Another note on this,

On Higher balls, a tucked in elbow will cause the outgoing shot (presuming the player attempts to hit topspin) to actually be more of a sidespin.

I do agree that it's generally more stable to have the elbow closer to the ribs HOWEVER simple physics proves that the shorter the lever arm the lower the linear velocity.

So like so many other decisions in this wonderful sport, It's a trade off.

Eric,
some videos show that there are two phases:
1.an elbow is tucked in
2.next the elbow is tucked away

for example Ferraro

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/jcferrero/jcferrero_forehand/jcf_fh_center/jcf_fh_center.html?JCFerreroFHCenterRear1.mov

Maybe I was deceived because it is ONLY rear view?
Thank you,
julian

[EricMatuszewski]

In my experience, the forehand works best when the abduction angle (this relates how far the elbow is from the ribs) remains fairly constant on the forward pull.

I've watched Ferrero a lot (He's one of my Favorite models on the backhand). He doesn't get as much abduction angle as some of the other players. If the angle changes any from on the way to the ball, it's not very much.

[uspta146749877]

Abduction angle

In my experience, the forehand works best when the abduction angle (this relates how far the elbow is from the ribs) remains fairly constant on the forward pull.

I've watched Ferrero a lot (He's one of my Favorite models on the backhand). He doesn't get as much abduction angle as some of the other players. If the angle changes any from on the way to the ball, it's not very much.

I understand that a constant abduction angle implies more control.

[airforce1]

In my experience, the forehand works best when the abduction angle (this relates how far the elbow is from the ribs) remains fairly constant on the forward pull.

I've watched Ferrero a lot (He's one of my Favorite models on the backhand). He doesn't get as much abduction angle as some of the other players. If the angle changes any from on the way to the ball, it's not very much.

I really agree with this perspective.