Forehand Questions (help me find my short loopy forehand!)

[jperedo]

Hello!

I've been having some problems with my forehand consistency lately. For a while I was having amazing success hitting with short balls with crazy topspin. To achieve this shot, I was relying on two techniques -

a)I was using the so called "stretch shortening cycle" technique (ie - passive supination followed by pronation),
b)focusing on not hitting through the ball (ie - accelerating across the ball, rather than through it). This acceleration was powered mainly with shoulder adduction(?) using conscious contraction of the pectoral muscle (I liken the movement to a pectoral fly when lifting weights). I should note that I am also doing full unit turn, and subsequently rotating before this contraction.
Using this type of ball, I was barely making UFE's, and I could move my opponents around on a string. It was the best tennis of my life.

However lately my forehand has been misfiring. I can no longer hit short loopy balls consistently. Either I hit the ball top tape, or the ball goes too deep for my liking. I also find that the ball no longer gets the same kick off the ground that it used to. Based on the two techniques that had gotten me to where I was, I believe my current failures are caused one of two thing. Either
a)I'm not properly supinating/pronating
b)I'm hitting through the ball too much, causing my ball to fly too far.

So now my questions which I hope can be answered, regarding regaining this short heavy top spin ball -

1)Where should the acceleration (pectoral contraction) begin? for example, in this clip of Verdasco, how many frames before contact?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/fernando_verdasco/fv_forehand/fv_fh_center/fv_fh_center.html?FVFHCenterOpenStanceCourtLevelSide2.mov

I was also having some success a few weeks back by waiting until my hitting shoulder rotated ahead of my non hitting shoulder. I believe that this allows for a greater pull across the ball. However I saw some other videos where pros appeared to accelerate earlier in the rotation, which caused me to doubt myself and now this cue is no longer working.

2)How and when should pronation be achieved? Should the acceleration accross the ball using the pec cause it to automatically happen or should the pronator muscles be actively contracted? Currently I don't consciously contract my forearm. However I find that sometimes my forearm doesn't pronate, and I have no idea what causes this. This usually occurs on off days. I saw this question brought up earlier in the supination thread, but there was only one response so I'm hoping others can chime in!

I've been putting off posting my questions for a while, hoping that I can figure it out on my own. Unfortunately my inconsistency is driving me bonkers so I turn to the forum hoping someone can point me in the correct direction!

Thanks for any help!
J

[jeffreycounts]

Hello!

I've been having some problems with my forehand consistency lately. For a while I was having amazing success hitting with short balls with crazy topspin. To achieve this shot, I was relying on two techniques -

a)I was using the so called "stretch shortening cycle" technique (ie - passive supination followed by pronation),
b)focusing on not hitting through the ball (ie - accelerating across the ball, rather than through it). This acceleration was powered mainly with shoulder adduction(?) using conscious contraction of the pectoral muscle (I liken the movement to a pectoral fly when lifting weights). I should note that I am also doing full unit turn, and subsequently rotating before this contraction.
Using this type of ball, I was barely making UFE's, and I could move my opponents around on a string. It was the best tennis of my life.

However lately my forehand has been misfiring. I can no longer hit short loopy balls consistently. Either I hit the ball top tape, or the ball goes too deep for my liking. I also find that the ball no longer gets the same kick off the ground that it used to. Based on the two techniques that had gotten me to where I was, I believe my current failures are caused one of two thing. Either
a)I'm not properly supinating/pronating
b)I'm hitting through the ball too much, causing my ball to fly too far.

So now my questions which I hope can be answered, regarding regaining this short heavy top spin ball -

1)Where should the acceleration (pectoral contraction) begin? for example, in this clip of Verdasco, how many frames before contact?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/fernando_verdasco/fv_forehand/fv_fh_center/fv_fh_center.html?FVFHCenterOpenStanceCourtLevelSide2.mov

I was also having some success a few weeks back by waiting until my hitting shoulder rotated ahead of my non hitting shoulder. I believe that this allows for a greater pull across the ball. However I saw some other videos where pros appeared to accelerate earlier in the rotation, which caused me to doubt myself and now this cue is no longer working.

2)How and when should pronation be achieved? Should the acceleration accross the ball using the pec cause it to automatically happen or should the pronator muscles be actively contracted? Currently I don't consciously contract my forearm. However I find that sometimes my forearm doesn't pronate, and I have no idea what causes this. This usually occurs on off days. I saw this question brought up earlier in the supination thread, but there was only one response so I'm hoping others can chime in!

I've been putting off posting my questions for a while, hoping that I can figure it out on my own. Unfortunately my inconsistency is driving me bonkers so I turn to the forum hoping someone can point me in the correct direction!

Thanks for any help!
J

I think you are setting yourself up for disaster with the stretch shortening cycle, pronation, etc.. Check out John's article on "The Myth of the Wrist" and watch how the hitting structure lifts up the back of the ball and pushes through the ball a bit before the rotation occurs of the entire double bend (not just the wrist like you are doing). John has a fantastic clip of Lleyton Hewitt hitting a short ball and it shows this beautifully, but I can't locate it on the site at the moment. I'll keep looking.

From my experience, when people try to add extra wrist motion they end up destroying the hitting structure and the racket just slaps at the ball, leading to the wild inconstency you describe. The power from the modern forehand does not come from the wrist. It comes from the combination of torso rotation and the double bend hitting structure, which lifts up the back of the ball and then powerfully rotates over. When you just "wrist" the ball, you lose the big forces that drive the ball at the pro level.

I would read and reread John's articles on "The Myth of the Wrist" and "The Myth of the Wrap" and completely ditch the "stretch shortening cycle" concept. It seems that the concept of the "stretch shortening cycle" is showing up everywhere and I can't imagine how many players are suffering from the same frustion and inconstency you describe after hearing about this. I wish the "double bend" concept was more appreciated because it is the structural foundation of the stroke.

You also might want to check out the clip I have on my home page of Nalbandian ripping a short ball:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com. The wrist stays laid back as his hitting structure lifts up the back of the ball and then the htting structure rotates over in the wiper finish. His wrist doesn't rotation until about three of four frames after the ball has long gone. Notice his "box" finish at the end, which I describe in my wiper article. The "box finish" is a result of the rotation of the entire hitting structure.

You need to use bigger forces of the human body to drive the ball and create topspin. I know wrist motions seem like an easy way to create pace and topspin, but it just doesn't work that way.

Jeff

[jperedo]

thanks for the quick reply Jeff

My problem though isn't with generating power. I feel I already rotate into the ball and shoulder it pretty good (i've read your articles like 50x).

My problem right now is controlling my depth and spin (ie - i want my basic bread and butter rally shots to get good net clearance, yet land on the service line)

At the moment my forehand is resembling that of James Blake (at the 4.0 level this is leading to disaster). What I want to regain is the clay court style forehand which I had a few months back, because it suited my risk averse personality a bit better. I can't figure it out. I even tried a Nadal reverse finish in a match yesterday. I ended up hitting a wicked laser beam winner, which completely surprised myself and my opponent. Despite getting the point I just got even more ticked off because the ball didn't do what I wanted!

I just started looking through john's articles again, and I think the item which relates to my conundrum is the "internal hand and arm rotation" article. I guess my problem is, how can I maximize the speed of this internal rotation such that I can generate short loopy balls. Ie - how to best combine shoulder rotation, passive supination and pronation to achieve my goal.

[johnyandell]

I agree with everything Jeff says but it's really a waste of effort to speculate about your motion unless we see it. Why not link a clip or send us some good video and Jeff and/or I might do a Your Strokes.

One thing for sure you need to followthrough-it might be a question of how but no followthrough is not the answer.

[airforce1]

is your own accessment of hitting too much thru the ball too simple an answer?

I find when I work on driving heavy balls thru the court playing some singles and take for granted my spinny dippers, that on occasion I lose those natural angle shots. I just get back to practice brushing the ball more and bingo, there they are again.

[mossback]

I know this might sound too simple to be effective, but I've found that it's very important to have a relaxed grip in order get the topspin range on my groundstrokes.