slice serve

[fomtinelli]

i just watched/read the dennis ralston slice serve article. my question is what part of the ball is he actually hitting. it appears he is hitting the outside part as opposed to slicing across the back of the ball (9:00 to 3:00 for righties). can you clarify this for me?

[scottmurphy]

First of all, thanks to Pancho Gonzales for showing Dennis Ralston his slice serve technique and then thanks to Dennis for sharing it on Tennisplayer.

I've always been pretty happy with my slice serve but since adding the component of not turning my head the results are unreal. In a doubles match today during a 5.0 practice I hit the slice to the duece court around ten times. Five were aces and the rest were barely touched. I tried one up the "T" on the ad court in the "I" formation and it was barely touched...pretty exciting.

I use an Eastern backhand grip and as a righty I swing across the ball to the outside from left to right. I toss the ball pretty much in line with my right shoulder, sometimes slightly more to the left but at the rate this serve slides away from he returner one could probably telegraph it by tossing well right and still do major damage.

Try this guys...it works!

Scott Murphy

[ochi]

Ralston article needs expansion

I wondered about that, too, and about several other things. On Feb. 28, in my post, "Ching Lee: Flat Serve," I requested information about how to hit a 90 percent slice. Dennis Ralston's articlein the April issue, was a good, exciting presentation, due mainly to the mini-vids showing the ball veering way off to his left, and showing the receiver being yanked to his right -- but it left several questions in this reader's mind. What was his stance; did he swivel his feet to the right before serving, to keep the ball from veering to far? What was his grip, continental, eastern backhand, or somewhere in between? Does he go 9-3, or simply smack the center of the ball as his racquet heads east; and does that center of the ball change according to his targets? How does he modify his wrist delivery for jamming the receiver in the deuce and ad courts, and for going down to the T on the ad court to tail the ball away from the receiver?

Since Feb. 28, I have been working on the fast, low-bouncing slice, but topspin has always become part of it, no matter how I tried to exclude it, which, it turns out, has been a good thing. The various, unpredictable results have been thrown off receivers lately. Spinning into a receiver on the ad side with a high bouncer, or going up the centerline with a tailer, have been especially effective, because of being especially unexpected.

I thought that the most valuable, to me, part of Ralston's article was about what Pancho Gonzalez forced him to learn -- keep your head still until well after the strike. Then I realized that that is what one must do to maximize any serve. Try to watch the strings strike the ball, and then watch the racquet continue for a few inches more.

I looked into a yellowed copy of Pancho Gonzalez's simplistic 1962 "Tennis," which I found in a used book shop. I was surprised to find that his favorite serve was the American twist, without pronounced backbend. He said, "I prefer either of these two spins to an absolutely flat ball, since they give me more control." This from a player considered one of the best, hardest hitting servers of all time, a player who, furthermore, was forbidden, by the rules back then, to leave the court with both feet when serving.

I hope for an expansion of Mr. Ralston's article, with head to foot mini-vids, and more details about the entire technique.

That one of Pete Sampras's most important weapons was his wide-out serve, his focus on spin, is a very strong reason to give this shot far more attention than it has gotten for decades, on TennisPlayer.net, or anywhere else. So what if few of today's top 100 pros use it (or so it seems to me, watching on TV)? It's surprising that big servers do not use it when their receivers are standing back up to nine feet. It's also surprising that the serve has been forgotten on the club level, at least around here.

[rainey]

slice serve

I agree with the above post. This site has been great for seeing footage of the pro serve. My son has copied the serve and has done well. But he still has reliability problems on his second serve. I have not seen any discussion of the best second serve on a recreational tennis level. Right now, the choices seem to be slice or topspin ( or some combo ). The Ralston article is intereresting and perhaps a starting point. I think slice might be the best choice for a learning players second serve? But, as questioned above, what about grip, foot position, toss location and height, and swing direction/speed? Scott or John, how about some help, and perhaps a future article?

[uspta146749877]

see classic lessons

I agree with the above post. This site has been great for seeing footage of the pro serve. My son has copied the serve and has done well. But he still has reliability problems on his second serve. I have not seen any discussion of the best second serve on a recreational tennis level. Right now, the choices seem to be slice or topspin ( or some combo ). The Ralston article is intereresting and perhaps a starting point. I think slice might be the best choice for a learning players second serve? But, as questioned above, what about grip, foot position, toss location and height, and swing direction/speed? Scott or John, how about some help, and perhaps a future article?

See classic lessons this forum

[johnyandell]

The differences in the motion will be relatively slight. There is no such thing as a "slice" serve, "topspin" serve, etc in terms of the biomechanics. These are just slight differences in the path of the racket at contact. It's wrong to think of it as a different toss, much less stance, etc no matter what some coaches may tell you.

Even Dennis's concept is designed to help players to just that-hit the wide slice by controlling the racket with the hand. Note the one he hits in the first animation.

We'll see this in some Sampras clips in the Forum nxt month.

So in terms of a motion you have your pick of many many articles and approaches.

[ochi]

OK, I won't call it slice; I'll call it heavy sidespin

and when I have it going really well, the ball swerves way to the left, so much that I have to swivel my feet to the right before I serve, to keep it in --that is, my toes are about four or five inches back from parallel to the baseline. Tossing a bit to the right, but not further out, helps a lot. The most gifted serving instructor I ever knew advised me to do this, even though he could hit anything off the same toss -- sidespin, twist, flat and hard right at me, and bounce them over my head, all with wrist changes. But he was a gifted, finely tuned tennis machine, on court every day. I am never going to master such subtle wrist actions by getting in only three to eight hours a week, at my age. What I do may be wrong in your view, but if it works, I'll keep doing it. And I still think that Dennis Ralston's article should be expanded a little. It's a great start, and the vids ought to show him from head to foot. A coach friend I sent it to put it in stronger words than that.

[rainey]

slice serve

Interesting John. So you suggest keeping pretty much the same motion for all serves...do not bring the ball toss in and to the side for slice/topspin, do not change stance or grip. Focus more on hand action on the stroke for varying spin? But I do see many pros changing their toss above their head for topspin serves. I suppose there are many approaches, but you believe it is best to keep most of the motion similar for most serves?

[johnyandell]

The big difference on the toss is between the first and second ball. You won't find examples in the stroke archive of many players (if any) with discernably different tosses for different spins and placements. Might as well just tell your opponent what you plan to do.

Sampras learned this because when he tossed Pete Fisher called out wide or down the T. Pete had no idea which one he was going to hit and had to make every toss the same. Not every player is going to use the same far left ball position but the same principle applies.

As for the second serve, check out the article I wrote on Pete's second serve in Tour Strokes. Again there are NOT big differences in the stances, windups, and basic swing paths. The differences are in the tosses and some relatively slight adjustments in the tracjectory of the racket from the drop to the contact.

As for the slice/topspin thing, again a matter of degree and you should be able to vary them somewhat on both deliveries for not only placement but to keep the returner off balance and guessing.

And we won't be redoing the Ralston article by the way. So far as I'm concerned it makes the point it makes perfectly. It's about creating those slight differences discussed above to cause a certain effect-not how to teach a serve from the ground up. If you can't get that then you missed the point!

[rainey]

slice serve

John, I looked over your tour strokes with Sampras's second serve. I understand your view. I'm looking for some practical advice. My son's first serve has good form and is strong. For the second serve, what is general advice to make it consistent without being too weak? Do not toss the ball as far into the court as the first serve, and add an element of slice and or topspin through the slightly closer toss and hand and wrist action? Does he take a bit off the swing, or just swing just as hard, with spin ( hopefully ) resulting in more control?

[johnyandell]

Add more topspin not slice. Bring the ball further left and possibly slightly closer but be very careful not to push the contact behind the plane of the body. That's a recipe for a shoulder injury plus you lose speed.

Studies show the racket speed is actually similar on a second serve. You hit more upward on the ball to generate the spin. That's the only difference. Do not "snap" the wrist--doesn't happen. The best image is to give the ball a "high five" with the racket face.

[bottle]

Ralston vs. Llodra

Ochi, Michel Llodra sure does use wide slice only it goes slower and lands halfway down the outside service line. For a contrast between this serve and Bob Bryan's please see my coverage of Davis Cup under the Jack Kramer toss thread.

Watching Ralston wide slice from these filmstrips: What does one see?

Elbow goes to palm tree slightly to his right-- around and out-- before it comes across. It's a service winner to deep in the corner. That elbow is going faster than the upper body rotation which is unstopped; i.e., it turns a long way, even past contact, but slowly. And Dennis Ralston breaks at waist and steps forward with right foot well before end of the followthrough. He only keeps head still until he's hit the ball. Then he sends head forward and it turns with his whole body, which suggests this turn (which replaces ubr
UNDER the still head, the one flowing into the other) is linked to stepping with his right foot. The racket tip never gets vertical behind his back. The two halves of the arm never get squeezed together. He doesn't have much more play in his rotors than the rest of us rotorded ones-- happens with age, I guess. But it's still a hell of a serve. He straightens wrist then pronates
left to right catty-cornered across outside edge of ball.

Then there's Pancho: The head moves right to left, stopping, and moves right to left again.

Very good: "When players hit a wide slice they have a tendency to open up their bodies too much too soon...Pancho stressed strongly that it was the hands and the path and the speed of the racket head that gave you consistency and control, not the torquing of the body...The key...is only a slight difference in the way the hand moves the racket across the ball."