Whassup with Federer?

[lukman41985]

Chip and charge? Do you guys not realize how slow clay is and how great Nadal's passes are?

[oliensis]

Chip-& Charging Nadal

Chip and charge? Do you guys not realize how slow clay is and how great Nadal's passes are?

Of course. I play on clay most of the time (more often on har-tru, but also on red clay). I acknowledged that it's a tall order. But if Nadal has a stroke that's weak relative to the other weapons in his arsenal, and perhaps even weak relative to others in the higher echelons of professional tennis, it's his serve. And if there's an opportunity to take time away from Nadal, I would think it would be there.

[crosscourt]

What was the strategy?
Slice?

No, he put a lot more air on the ball. In fact he did this on both sides. But it was noticeable that on the backhand he tried to play his way out of the corner, rather than trying to terminate the point. I thought that he did some smart things defending his backhand side. Overall I thought that putting more air on the ball was a good tactic. He let it down though by trying to strike too quickly at key points.

[uspta146749877]

how slow is slow?

Of course. I play on clay most of the time (more often on har-tru, but also on red clay). I acknowledged that it's a tall order. But if Nadal has a stroke that's weak relative to the other weapons in his arsenal, and perhaps even weak relative to others in the higher echelons of professional tennis, it's his serve. And if there's an opportunity to take time away from Nadal, I would think it would be there.

It has been tried but it does NOT work very well versus Nadal.
It is NOT easy to get to the 50% threshold when coming to a net.
Higueras knows that

[uspta146749877]

No, he put a lot more air on the ball. In fact he did this on both sides. But it was noticeable that on the backhand he tried to play his way out of the corner, rather than trying to terminate the point. I thought that he did some smart things defending his backhand side. Overall I thought that putting more air on the ball was a good tactic. He let it down though by trying to strike too quickly at key points.

It is very hard to figure "what is too quickly" vs Nadal on clay.
10 touches or 15 touches?
His defense is good enough to handle short AND long rallies.
Everybody forgets that he won 88 of his lat 89 matches

An article from NYTimes-I will post some comments later
when I will be back from a high school tennis practice
Sorry - pictures from the original article are lost somehow


==================================================
Facing Federer
==================================================
New York Times Magazine, The (NY)-August 20, 2006
Author: As told to Peter Bodo

HEADING INTO THE U.S. OPEN, PATRICK McENROE, THE CAPTAIN OF THE U.S.
DAVIS CUP TEAM, BREAKS DOWN THE SWISS STAR'S GAME, SINGLING OUT HIS GREATEST
STRENGTHS -- AND LAUGHABLY FEW WEAKNESSES.

THE FINE POINTS as told to Peter Bodo

FIRST SERVE

TAKING CHARGE EARLY

Federer has a terrific serve, regularly clocking in at 115-125 m.p.h.,
but unlike, say, Andy Roddick, he's not looking for the ace. Instead, he uses it
to set up a killing follow-up shot or to take command of a rally. His most basic
service play is designed to set himself up for a forehand winner. As Federer
serves, his momentum will carry him a couple of steps into the court, where
he'll be looking to hit a forehand. If he's hitting a first serve from the deuce
(right) court to a right-hander, like Roddick, look for him to go for a flat, hard one (1)
intended to prevent the righty from taking his requisite full swing. Roddick can
bet the house and try a forehand screamer to Federer's backhand corner. Mostly,
though, he'll go cross-court (2) in order to buy time to get back into the court
and protect his exposed backhand. This is a race against time, and if his return
is not sufficiently hard and deep, Federer will win the race -- stepping in to
hit the down-the-line!
forehand winner (3).

SERVICE RETURN

ATTACKING THE SECOND SERVE

Federer is very difficult to ace, yet he's not heralded for his return,
mostly because he doesn't try to do too much with it. He just wants to get it
back, deep, to wipe out the natural advantage of the server. Federer will attack
the second serve, especially if an opponent is trying to coax an error out of
his backhand. Federer will often step around the backhand to hit a big forehand
return, an especially valuable move when playing a left-hander, like Rafael Nadal,
whose kick serve (1) bounces high and away from Federer's backhand in the ad
(left) court. Federer rarely tried stepping around at the French Open; instead,
he spent the afternoon hitting his least favorite shot, the high backhand, which
frustrated him. At Wimbledon, however, he began to step around the backhand. It
paid off, partly because the kicker draws the returner far enough out of the
court to give Federer two lethal options: the bullet down the line (2) or the
inside-out forehand (2a) at a severe!
angle back to Nadal's forehand side.

CROSS-COURT RALLY

FORCING AN ERROR

Federer is masterly at executing the low backhand slice (1) to his
opponent's forehand or backhand, inviting a cross-court return to Federer's
forehand. Opponents like James Blake sometimes try to beat him to the punch. If
Blake chooses to go with a slice to Federer's forehand (2), the backswing will
give him away. Federer can use his flexible wrist and superb timing to rip a shot
cross-court with heavy topspin (3), and he can either follow his momentum to the
net or stay back if his shot isn't quite penetrating enough, content that he is
now in control of the point. If he stays back, the stage is set for a
forehand-to-forehand cross-court rally (4, 5) that is very hard to win against
Federer. It's dispiriting to have to fight off those high-jumping, topspin
forehands. Hitting one at shoulder height is like being pushed by a 100-pound
weight. The shots are like blows to the body; after three or four, most players
will make an error (6).

THE TRICK SHOT

USING THE WHOLE COURT

Federer makes full use of the court -- including the service-box areas
-- better than anyone else on the tour. Most players (like Lleyton Hewitt) spend
their time hoping to keep the ball deep. Federer seems to spend his time
thinking about how to use the full space. He has one forehand shot that I've never seen another player use. He takes it off a short, low
ball (1) when he's up around the center service line and moving forward and
toward the backhand side. He'll really wrap his wrist around this shot, getting
such exaggerated topspin that the ball leaps over the net and immediately lands
inside the opposite side (deuce court) service box (2). His opponent, back at
the base line, is taken by surprise and forced to rush up as if he were chasing
down a drop shot. Often, Federer's shot is a clear winner. If not, he is at the
net, ready to take the rising return -- it's almost always going cross-court (3)
-- with a volley (4) to end the point.

TROUBLE

UPSETTING FEDERER

The players who give Federer the most trouble are those who are strong
from the left side: left-handers like Nadal or righties whose backhands are very
strong and able to absorb the punishment dished out by Federer's lethal
forehand. This group includes Marat Safin, Marcos Baghdatis and David Nalbandian. When Federer slices his serve (1) in the
deuce (right) court against Nadal, the Spaniard -- aided by the angle created
when he's drawn out wide -- can try to get Federer back on his heels by
returning deep to his backhand corner (2). Because a slice won't stay as low on
the hard courts of Arthur Ashe Stadium as it does on grass, Federer will almost
certainly have to answer with a cross-court topspin backhand (3) that will fly
right into the strike zone for Nadal's big forehand. Look for Nadal to go down
the line with that shot (4), especially if he hits it on the run, something he's
very comfortable doing. Nadal is fleet and strong enough to play to Federer's
forehan!
d and live to tell.

THE BIG WEAKNESS

FORCING THE BACKHAND

One of the advantages Nadal has over Federer is that his kick serve
consistently bounces high to Federer's backhand. This helps Nadal execute the
most effective strategy in his playbook: the high-bouncing topspin shot to Federer's backhand. From the ad court, Nadal will
serve the kicker (1) that pulls Federer wide and forces him to hit a high
backhand. Federer is now in a defensive position and has to go down the line (2)
to avoid Nadal's forehand. Nadal knows this, so he takes the return and backhand
drives it cross-court (3), knowing that even if Federer hits a great shot on the
run (4), Nadal has enough speed to cover it. If it plays out that way, Nadal
goes back to Federer's backhand with heavy topspin (5). Federer's only real
option then is to go cross-court (6), back to Nadal's forehand. In typical
fashion, Nadal will give Federer another high backhand or two and, when he has
Federer pinned to the backhand corner, go for the inside-out winner (7).

TENNIS SERVES AND GRIPS

READING THE SERVICE TOSS

The location of the toss can tip off an opposing player to the type of
serve that's coming. A ball tossed straight out in front indicates a powerful flat serve (A). If the ball is out and to the right (for a righty), it is
likely to be a side-spin or "slice" serve (B), which remains low and swerves to
the right of the receiver. A kick serve (C) (or "kicker") requires a toss that
drifts slightly back and to the left of the server, creating heavy spin and a
pronounced UPWARD OR sideways bounce after it hits the ground.

THE FOUR BASIC GRIPS

FOUR GRIPS DOMINATE PRO TENNIS: THE CONTINENTAL (1) (AKA BACKHAND GRIP)
IS THE GRIP OF CHOICE FOR THE SERVE AND VOLLEY AS WELL AS FOR SOME ONE-HANDED
BACKHANDS AND THE SERVICE RETURN, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T CALL FOR A GRIP CHANGE
AGAINST HARD SERVES, WHICH TYPICALLY AIM AT THE BACKHAND. THE EASTERN (2) IS
SOMETIMES CALLED THE FOREHAND GRIP AND IS USEFUL FOR PLAYING LOW BALLS AND FOR
HITTING CLEAN, FLAT SHOTS. THE SEMI-WESTERN (3), USED BY FEDERER AND MANY OTHER
TOP PLAYERS, REPRESENTS A COMPROMISE BETWEEN THE SOMEWHAT RADICAL WESTERN GRIP
AND THE OTHERS. IT GIVES PLAYERS GREAT LATITUDE IN THE AMOUNT OF SPIN THEY GENERATE AND STILL ALLOWS THEM TO USE THE
FOREHAND AS A MAJOR, POINT-ENDING WEAPON. THE WESTERN (4) IS USED BY RAFAEL
NADAL AND OTHER CLAY-COURTERS WHO POUND AWAY WITH POWERFUL TOPSPIN FOREHANDS.
Illustrations (ILLUSTRATIONS BY +ISM)(pgs. 52,53)
Edition: Late Edition - Final
Section: Play Magazine
Page: 52
Page Column: 1
Page Subsection: 6
Column: PLAY

Record Number: 2006-08-20-698016
Copyright (c) 2006 The New York Times Company



INBOX: Email 1 of 1841 Move to Folder INBOX Draft Screened Mail SentMail Trash Back to Top

[crosscourt]

It isn't a prescribed number. One of Fed's problems against Nadal has been that if his first attempt at winning the point hasn't worked, he has tended to act precipitately rather than work through the point again.

[oliensis]

Shot Tolerance

From:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_performance/elliot_teltscher/shot_tolerance/shot_tolerance.html

As big as everybody's hitting the ball, look at the people that are winning. Roger Federer makes very few errors, but I think that his shot tolerance, at least on clay, is less than Rafael Nadal. I think it's one of the things that got to him a little bit this year. In those big clay court finals, Nadal knew he could just play the way he normally plays, and it was good enough, because his shot tolerance is higher. That turned out to be a little different on grass, or on an indoor court in Shanghai.

If a player hits his shot tolerance it doesn't matter who he or she is, even if it's Roger Federer or Justine Henin-Hardenne. Suddenly they'll hit a drop shot from four feet behind the baseline. Or they'll go for some absurd winner. Or they'll make a surprising error on a relatively easy ball in the middle of the court. They don't want to hit any more balls.

This point is going to end on this shot, no matter what, one way or the other. They have reached the end of their shot tolerance. Some people hit their shot tolerance at five or six balls. Others go into the 30's and 40's. But it's the same effect no matter when it happens.

Assuming that Teltscher is right on this (and I think he is), then, even though it's tough to play first-strike tennis on red clay, and even though it's wacky tough to do against Nadal, that is still what Federer has to figure out how to do in order to beat Nadal. He has to figure out how to 1) take time away, 2) take and make the most of his opportunities, 3) induce Nadal to lose his rhythm and draw weak & awkward shots, and 4)believe in his ability to play this kind of tennis under the hardest of circumstances.

Very tall order. Probably not possible to do throughout the course of many matches, but possible. I don't think it's possible for Federer to beat Nadal on clay playing Nadal's game.

What may be the worst problem is that, being #1, Federer probably believes that his game is more imposing that everyone else's. And he's right...except against Nadal on clay. The psychology of playing outside his primary game may either a) make it impossible for him to believe in this 2ndary game sufficiently to execute it through 3-of-5 sets and/or b) damage his belief in himself as the #1 player in the world.

Just thinking outloud. Welcome thoughts.

[uspta146749877]

Please read an article from NY Times I posted

From:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_performance/elliot_teltscher/shot_tolerance/shot_tolerance.html

As big as everybody's hitting the ball, look at the people that are winning. Roger Federer makes very few errors, but I think that his shot tolerance, at least on clay, is less than Rafael Nadal. I think it's one of the things that got to him a little bit this year. In those big clay court finals, Nadal knew he could just play the way he normally plays, and it was good enough, because his shot tolerance is higher. That turned out to be a little different on grass, or on an indoor court in Shanghai.

If a player hits his shot tolerance it doesn't matter who he or she is, even if it's Roger Federer or Justine Henin-Hardenne. Suddenly they'll hit a drop shot from four feet behind the baseline. Or they'll go for some absurd winner. Or they'll make a surprising error on a relatively easy ball in the middle of the court. They don't want to hit any more balls.

This point is going to end on this shot, no matter what, one way or the other. They have reached the end of their shot tolerance. Some people hit their shot tolerance at five or six balls. Others go into the 30's and 40's. But it's the same effect no matter when it happens.

Assuming that Teltscher is right on this (and I think he is), then, even though it's tough to play first-strike tennis on red clay, and even though it's wacky tough to do against Nadal, that is still what Federer has to figure out how to do in order to beat Nadal. He has to figure out how to 1) take time away, 2) take and make the most of his opportunities, 3) induce Nadal to lose his rhythm and draw weak & awkward shots, and 4)believe in his ability to play this kind of tennis under the hardest of circumstances.

Very tall order. Probably not possible to do throughout the course of many matches, but possible. I don't think it's possible for Federer to beat Nadal on clay playing Nadal's game.

What may be the worst problem is that, being #1, Federer probably believes that his game is more imposing that everyone else's. And he's right...except against Nadal on clay. The psychology of playing outside his primary game may either a) make it impossible for him to believe in this 2ndary game sufficiently to execute it through 3-of-5 sets and/or b) damage his belief in himself as the #1 player in the world.

Just thinking outloud. Welcome thoughts.

Please read an article from NY Times i posted
---->
One of the advantages Nadal has over Federer is that his kick serve
consistently bounces high to Federer's backhand. This helps Nadal execute the
most effective strategy in his playbook: the high-bouncing topspin shot to Federer's backhand. From the ad court, Nadal will
serve the kicker (1) that pulls Federer wide and forces him to hit a high
backhand. Federer is now in a defensive position and has to go down the line (2)
to avoid Nadal's forehand. Nadal knows this, so he takes the return and backhand
drives it cross-court (3), knowing that even if Federer hits a great shot on the
run (4), Nadal has enough speed to cover it. If it plays out that way, Nadal
goes back to Federer's backhand with heavy topspin (5). Federer's only real
option then is to go cross-court (6), back to Nadal's forehand. In typical
fashion, Nadal will give Federer another high backhand or two and, when he has
Federer pinned to the backhand corner, go for the inside-out winner (7).

----> the end of the quote


see as well

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=3373507

[oliensis]

Pondering the Puzzle

[QUOTE=uspta146749877;6143]Please read an article from NY Times i posted
---->
One of the advantages Nadal has over Federer is that his kick serve
consistently bounces high to Federer's backhand. This helps Nadal execute the
most effective strategy in his playbook: the high-bouncing topspin shot to Federer's backhand. From the ad court, Nadal will
serve the kicker (1) that pulls Federer wide and forces him to hit a high
backhand. Federer is now in a defensive position and has to go down the line (2)
to avoid Nadal's forehand. Nadal knows this, so he takes the return and backhand
drives it cross-court (3), knowing that even if Federer hits a great shot on the
run (4), Nadal has enough speed to cover it. If it plays out that way, Nadal
goes back to Federer's backhand with heavy topspin (5). Federer's only real
option then is to go cross-court (6), back to Nadal's forehand. In typical
fashion, Nadal will give Federer another high backhand or two and, when he has
Federer pinned to the backhand corner, go for the inside-out winner (7).

----> the end of the quote

Roger also has a kicker. Nadal also has a backhand, which is weaker than his forehand. Federer's backhand on clay is probably weaker than Nadal's, all things considered, but Federer's transition game and net game are both better than Nadal's...and his serve is better.
"Accentuate the positive...eeeeeliminate the negative, and don't mess with Mr. Inbetween!"

Or should Roger give up?

I think the point is that we're all trying to figure out a puzzle and in the process stimulate and improve our own thinking about tennis...so, I, for one, will keep on pondering how Federer can beat Nadal on clay, even if it never happens again. The benefits of the process accrue to my own game, albeit at a vastly lower level than those fellows play at.

[oliensis]

Patterns

The Nadal puzzle for Federer...

A few years back there was a guy I played who had a fairly extreme western grip on his forehand and a very unusual backhand, in that he could pass like the dickens, taking the ball on the rise, absorbing pace, and, with a not-very-pretty stroke, fairly poor mechanics, and not moving well through the ball, pass either down the line or cross-court. (He also took his forehand pretty early and went cross-court especially well.)

I lost a number of times to him and finally one day I realized I had to think differently in order to have a shot at winning. It finally dawned on me that I should hit loopy, high, no-pace balls to his backhand, which would draw relatively short balls--he could absorb pace well with his backhand, but he didn't generate his own pace well at all with the stroke, and then, if a) he went cross-court w/ the backhand, I should slice my backhand down the line, or, if b) he went down the line w/ his backhand, then I should wack the ball hard w/ a heavy angle to his forehand.

Why? Because, w/ the western grip on his forehand in case (a) he would have to reply to a low sliced ball (not optimal for a western forehand) and in case (b) he would have to run very wide, which was, again, sub-optimal, given his western forehand. So he would either be hitting a low ball, probably changing directions and from out of his best hitting zone, or hitting a running forehand--tougher on the western grip again.

I didn't beat the guy in the most important match we played (club semi final), but I did take him deep into the match, deeper than ever before, finally losing either 6-4 or 7-5 (I can't remember) in the 3rd (split the 1st 2 sets).

Why bring this up? In the context of the Patrick McEnroe article recently posted, I'm thinking about patterns that Federer could play that could work against Nadal.

I have some ideas, but I'm interested in other people's thoughts as well.

[crosscourt]

What Fed was doing at MC this year was working through the backhand problem. This is the shot tolerance issue that we have observed over the last few years. In the past Fed has had to hit out or get out. Now he is trying to play out.

[uspta146749877]

Nadal and Wimbledon

What Fed was doing at MC this year was working through the backhand problem. This is the shot tolerance issue that we have observed over the last few years. In the past Fed has had to hit out or get out. Now he is trying to play out.

click

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=3370893

So maybe it is NOT only clay?

[uspta146749877]

a blog about Nadal

What Fed was doing at MC this year was working through the backhand problem. This is the shot tolerance issue that we have observed over the last few years. In the past Fed has had to hit out or get out. Now he is trying to play out.

see see as well

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3376428&name=tennis

see as well

http://www.atptennis.com/3/en/mercedesbenz/default.asp

see as well

http://www.atptennis.com/1/en/2008news/barcelona_saturday.asp

a small video with Nadal from Barcelona

[oliensis]

Juan Carlos Beats Nadal

Nadal had a blister on his foot and that was problematic for him. But he didn't have the blister in Monte Carlo, did he? He got the blister playing Ferrero, who played flawless tennis in a very long first set.

I'm sure Federer is studying the tape of that match. He should be. Ferror played Nadal's backhand hard, until it opened up the court and then when balls out on the inside-out forehands.

Lots easier if you have a 2-handed backhand, but do-able w/ a one-hander, I think...esp. if you're Federer.

I thought Ferrero played a really smart match.

[uspta146749877]

Some highlights

Nadal had a blister on his foot and that was problematic for him. But he didn't have the blister in Monte Carlo, did he? He got the blister playing Ferrero, who played flawless tennis in a very long first set.

I'm sure Federer is studying the tape of that match. He should be. Ferror played Nadal's backhand hard, until it opened up the court and then when balls out on the inside-out forehands.

Lots easier if you have a 2-handed backhand, but do-able w/ a one-hander, I think...esp. if you're Federer.

I thought Ferrero played a really smart match.

see some snapshots at the end of

http://www.atpmastersseries.tv/page/Tournaments/Roma/0,,11444,00.html?WT.mc_id=atpcom