Interactive Forum: Jan 2008 The Upward Swing More High Speed Video

[EricMatuszewski]

A spike in posts last month have encouraged us to keep this topic going!

Tennisplayer has provided 4 more slow motion close ups of the serving arms of top players, all starting 12 frames away from contact.

Is it possible that timing differences may be an important key to increasing serve speed? Does Sampras extend his forearm later than Agassi? Does this contributes to his increased serve speed?

What about the differences between Roddick and Nadal. They have some similarities in there motions, but what accounts for the speed disparity?

With QuickTime Pro you can make a mirror image of Nadal and flip him into a right hander for an easier comparison.


Agassi





Sampras

[EricMatuszewski]

QuickTime Versions

Agassi



Sampras

[EricMatuszewski]

The Upward Swing: More High Speed Video

Nadal




Roddick

[EricMatuszewski]

QuickTime Version

Nadal



Roddick

[rfreder929]

Serve Nadal Roddick

Just note the separation between the upper and lower arm at contact and that will explain part of the story. A Roddick or Samparas have more degrees of separation while an Agassai or a Nadal have considerably less and almost none as they too powerfully pronate through ball.

[airforce1]

could you explain what you are referring to as separation between upper and lower arm?

[airforce1]

As you might guess, I see the first frame as the telling one in these videos.
It is so clear in each of them :
how Agassi's forearm is not even to parallel and Rafa's is almost hitting parallel;

then compare this to how much lower the hand and forearm are for Pete and Andy in the first frame. Well past parallel in the other direction!
It is dramatic.
For me this is the clear indication if a person has technique that will aid them in being a really big server. This is the benchmark we are searching for. Most of the other stuff being discussed is related to setting up and supporting this powerful position.

It also explains the old question as to how Andy could serve so big in spite of what many saw as a radically different prep.

As a side note, notice that Rafa's hand and forearm has gotten progressively lower over the last 2 years, as his velocity has increased.

[stroke]

I agree completely with airforce1 on this forearm angle to the court at the lowest racquet drop position being the key to serving really big. Roddick may have the lowest drop we have seen. I read one article somewhere that had is drop at 135 degrees. As airforce pointed out, Agassi really does not even get to 90 degrees(parallel to the court) and Nadal gets just barely past 90 degrees. Sampras gets well past 90 degrees, but not nearly as deep as Roddick.

[uspta1882566509]

forearm angle

i agree with you guys on this as well. the difference is pretty obvious and it makes common sense that you could get more power/racket speed from that position.

now i am not sure if that is a technique issue though or if that is an issue of shoulder flexibility/range of motion. i tend to think it is the latter. just try to put your arm in a position like roddick has it...i can only do it when my racket touches my back, not when the racket is away from the body like it should be in reality.
I remember an interview with Roddick when he first came on the scene and they asked him how he developed that huge serve. He said he developed tremendous range of motion in the shoulder while he had to rehab a shoulder injury.

another issue is shoulder strength/speed. assuming solid technique, the differences in speed of serves can be explained by how fast you get from that lowest racket drop position to the contact point or how much racket speed you can generate from there.
Pat Etcheberry told me that Sampras has shoulder strength that is comparable to some of the football players that Etch worked with...he said he hasn't seen anything even close in shoulder strength from other tennis players compared to Sampras.

any thoughts ?

Florian Meier

[airforce1]

I agree that it is clear that if you cannot get into that position, then using this technique is not available, but I still see it as a technique issue and this is why.

If you look at the big servers second serve video, there are some telling things you can see in comparison. It takes a more critical eye, but while the elbow still leads the way, getting high and above the hand;
you can see the forearm releasing and starting to rise earlier than they do on the first serves. You can see this better with Andy because there is generally a different speed for his second serve, where for Pete, it was not uncommon for him to uncork another first serve in many second serve situations.

At a glance you might think the second looks just like the first, but looking closely you can see that when the elbow stops (hitting bottle's pane of glass) , that the forearm is already well in motion for second serves, thereby modifiying the technique to become slightly more controllable.

[airforce1]

As for the range of motion aspect, there are good articles on this site, concerning massage and rehab stretching to increase range of motion for things just like this.
I hope that gentleman is watching this thread and will add some of his valuable insight on these issues.

[johnyandell]

There is definitely a difference in the first frame. This to appears to have to do with the depth of the racket drop. All the clips start from the point where the angle between the forearm and the upper arm is the most closed.

Interestingly that's 11 frames for all for players prior to contact. So the start of the extension of the elbow is happening at virtually the exact same millisecond. It's just that it is beginning from different positions.

[airforce1]

John, I think you hit it right on the head there.

If the extension starts and ends at the same time, then the one where the racket travels further in said time,
is moving considerably faster than the one with less travel distance.

In the end, assuming each player is hitting the ball cleanly, racket speed is the defining aspect of producing higher velocities.

Referring to this as delayed extension based on time would appear to be misleading, but looking at it from the perspective of sequence the term makes more sense.

[johnyandell]

There has been a lot to learn here. And there still is. Brian's second article on the upward swing is another blockbuster--looking forward to unleashing it in Feb.

[airforce1]

Brian Gordon in Feb issue

What a super article on the upward swing of the Pro level serve. While it does not directly address the differences between the elite velocity servers from the merely excellent servers, he does an outstanding job of achieving his stated objectives such as:
"My hope is this explanation well shed some light on serve mechanics."

"Nonetheless I believe we have succeeded in highlighting the many factors and choices that go into constructing a high level serve for yourself or for your players."

This article also goes a long way into answering most of the questions posted on this subject in the forum to this point. He does an excellent job of walking that fine line of depth/detail; mixed with readability.

Looking forward to more of Brian's work on this and other subjects and hoping that the rest of the Feb issue is this good!
thanks