For what it's worth

[airforce1]

I agree that Fed (or Rod) is the greatest player ever, once the points starts (he is and has been my favorite player even before he won his first major),
but when it comes to serving, Pete is still the gold standard.

No one in the modern era (our video archives) can serve with power, spin, placement and consistency over time like Pete did on the first and second serve. As good as the Fed is, this may be the only area that he's not top five.

The Point??
We have better servers to study, as least as the primary subjects. Nothing wrong with comparing to Federer from there I suppose.

[carrerakent]

hmmm

airforce1...this makes me wonder...take Pete's serve down a few notches to a typical top 10 server and would he have even ever won a single grand slam? it's interesting to think in terms of taking away someone's weapon(s) and wondering how effective they would have been...all the more reason to appreciate Roger because you could take away probably any component of his game and he'd still be #1....like Michael Jordan...they have the ability to evolve as the game and opponents adjust/evolve.

[airforce1]

I agree with your line of thinking here. I'm not sure Pete would have won a grand Slam with only a top 10 (in his era) kind of serve. His serve was his big confidence beacon as well. He would have won some with a top ten of all time serve though, cause he does have a very good game. I believe his first and second serve combination have no equal in the history of tennis.

Of course it's not fair to take away his serve. He was smart enough to develop that weapon, understanding it's importance in the Men's game. But I agree totally that it tends to make me appreciate Federer's dominance considering that he is not walking onto the court each time with that huge trump card up his sleeve!

[carrerakent]

old reply

airforce1

what do you think about Feds serve now. he said he recognized that as a weakness before wimbledon and look what he served up to roddick. although fed played like crap...and roddick played maybe the best match of his life...fed still is the man..because his serve? now?

[airforce1]

This is an excellent example of why it is so hard to compare the greats of eras, right? And these guys are in the same era.

Yes, I agree that Roddick played the match of his life, but.....
at the same time, there is no way physically he should be out aced by Fed

and Fed never serves that many aces against anyone else. Especially not Nadal. Matchups are so big.
30 game 5th set on grass, along with tiebreakers and deuces boosted the ace total quite a bit for Fed, but Fed is too good of returner for it to do the same for Roddick.

No, I still don't think of Fed when I think of the great servers. Am I wrong not to? That is very likely, but for me, It's more like how JY put in the heavy serve article about what a balanced and versatile server Fed "can" be. A little like a higher powered Agassi who really sets up things with his excellent serve.

Sampras
Krajicek- wish this one had stayed more healthy to see more of his damage!
Tilden
Roddick
Ivanisevic
Pancho
are the names that come to mind and I'm sure I left out some monsters even on that list.

[tcuk]

I don't subscribe to the view that Federer is the greatest ever, Airforce. The GOAT debate can't be determined on slams won because people like Pancho Gonzales, etc., hardly played any. And even in his own current playing career he is heavily in deficit in head-to-heads with Nadal. In fact - for me at least - Nadal at the top of his game is a slightly better player than Federer.

But getting back on thread! Federer is an awesome server. No-one has ever served better than Fed did in the 5th set of the Wimbledon final. You could even argue his serve is his best shot, not his forehand.

It's like splitting hairs as to who is the greatest server, but mine are as follows:

1. Goran
2. Sampras
3. Pancho Gonzales
4. Federer (shear accuracy puts him on a par with anyone)
5. McEnroe (for the shear difficulty of playing it back then with wood rackets)

[airforce1]

I can appreciate everyone on your list, but the simple act of putting Goran ahead of Sampras still puts our opinions miles apart.

[tcuk]

Yes, most people wouldn't put Goran up there, probably because he's not a high achiever like the rest. But if you look at his serve over a career with all the aces he delivered, you have to put it right up there. It's unique, uncannily accurate, and his ace count is higher than anyone.

[airforce1]

Remember, My comment dealt with the great "Servers", not just the first serve.

Yes, if you look at aces and the first serve instead of the "Server", but thats not the way I evaluate the server. I like the adage that you are only as good as your 2ond serve and for me Pete has no Peer in this area, not to mention about bringing the goods with the match on the line, down 2 break points! (unless it is one of the old timers like Tilden that I never witnessed) Each serving point is a possible pair of serves, so clearly the combination of the 2 is what should considered IMO.

I also don't think just looking at total aces tells much either, like in the 30 game 5th set for Fed. I'd be more interested in the % of aces. Maybe Goran would look even better that way, but it's not my guess. My guess is he had more deuces and service games, therefore more opportunity for aces, along with being even more serve dependent than Pete. (meaning going for aces was his best bet given the brain farts he pulled once in the point)
I'm also guessing he had fewer svc winners by % as well, but may be WAY off as I'm just guessing.

For sheer 1st serve, I'd say Krajicek with little hesitation. Just seemed to take away all hope and seemed more consistent when healthy than Goran, but again, I have no stats to back my feelings.

[tcuk]

Apparently, Goran served more 2nd serve aces than anyone else! I take your point about Pete's 2nd serve, though. But like I said, it's like splitting hairs with players that serve this well.

[airforce1]

Apparently, Goran served more 2nd serve aces than anyone else! I take your point about Pete's 2nd serve, though. But like I said, it's like splitting hairs with players that serve this well.

yes, guess you are right about that.

[tcuk]

Kracijek

I was just studying Kracijek's serve in the stroke archive. Airforce, you're right! The man had an incredible service motion. I'd forgotten just how good it was. To look at, it's the best I've ever seen...so simple...how did he ever miss it ...it looks so perfect

[airforce1]

I was just studying Kracijek's serve in the stroke archive. Airforce, you're right! The man had an incredible service motion. I'd forgotten just how good it was. To look at, it's the best I've ever seen...so simple...how did he ever miss it ...it looks so perfect

When I saw him play, he didn't miss many. He looked nearly unbeatable.
I understand he could not stay healthy.

[airforce1]

Kracijek Tcuk

was working with my son on his toss yesterday and fell into the Kracijek style and we both really loved it. It really set you up well to unleash on the ball.

[tcuk]

Airforce, great minds....EXACTLY what I was doing with my son (12) a few days ago. I get him to shadow-stroke the motion everyday in the garden.