Interactive Forum: Dec 2007 Federer Serve Upward Swing

[EricMatuszewski]

I looked @ some High speed clips in the archive trying to quantify some of the phenomena you've noticed Air Force.

I compared how many frames it took for each player on a first serve to go from a full extension of their left legs (an marker that the leg has completed it's contribution) to the start of internal rotation of their arms. The elbow is extending around this time as well.

It takes Agassi 3 frames whereas it takes Roddick 10 frames.

I'd guess that Roddick's flexibility allows him to stretch for a longer time before releasing that stored energy contributed by his lower body.

The next question I'd have is... Can you train this?

[airforce1]

No doubt that you can train it.

The crux I've found is that most don't have a good enough toss to make use of it. Because of the higher racket speeds, the toss needs to be more precise. There is not as much room to compensate with this aggressive stroke. Few people can appreciate the toss enough, even in the pros.

[airforce1]

Air force,

Your observation is a good one.

Do you see any correlation between the phenomenon your describing and shoulder flexibility?

I think flexibility is always important. This is one more great example where trained flexibility enhances performance.

[bottle]

Irritability

1. I learned two minutes ago that I've got a piece of bone, fluid and arthritis floating around in my left knee.

2. None of the brilliant minds here will say how the arm extends so fast. They say WHEN but not HOW. And if they don't know, won't admit that.
So do you all accept my guess of how the arm straightens-- the one about acceleration-deceleration? I even outlined some of the popularly expressed alternatives to that view-- where does each viewer/reader of this string stand on this crucial point? Or, if we get the delay right are we supposed to generate huge natural speed-- hey, don't ask why, and which way to the beach? It will take care of itself in this best of all possible worlds?
Are all tennis players romantics with a smug, exaggerated view of their own understanding of something? Was I right about the pane of glass? Is that what the silence conveys? I can think of other interpretations but they don't make me more respectful of tennis commentators either.

If the silence conveys acceptance of my entirely speculative pane of glass cue, should the glass be set at 90 degrees to the court or at 45 degrees or at some other setting? Listen, I may not be The Little Prince, but like him I don't give up and let my question go unanswered, either. The inquiry will continue here or elsewhere until I receive an answer from somebody.

I've noticed however, that when you put real pressure on tennis analysts they are apt to fly off in weird directions and go for the easiest possible
misunderstanding. Therefore, before I receive a lecture on my tone or personal psychology I stress: We already agree on such basics as delay and elbow repositioning with force and kinetic chain, and that all excellence in a serve is dependent on full contributions from ALL the little factors.

Still, how should the arm extend? Spaghetti arm or muscular? Etc., etc., etc.

Look-- I'm a little older. Everybody agrees here that the clips are maybe the most extraordinary ever. It's the NEXT thing people are trying to say that burns me-- Oh, look, Roger does exactly what I do. I and all my friends are wonderful players, just like Roger. And let the hackers eat bread!

A clip can not be extraordinary without being provocative. If it isn't provocative to you-- fine-- it is to me. And I demand more explanation from people who purport to be tennis pros.

[BrianGordon]

Still, how should the arm extend? Spaghetti arm or muscular? Etc., etc., etc.

Bottle-

It is too long a story for the forum - but I believe many of your questions will be answered next issue - Brian

[airforce1]

Bottle,
I don't know much about the pane of glass thing, but I loved your movie, "Grumpy Old Men". hahahaha smile

I guess we take certain things to be self evident, but good technique only puts you in a position to do your best. It doesn't take into account your motivation, fitness, or potential. It doesn't mean that your personal best will be as good as Roddicks either, especially if you are over 50.

I thought the point of the thread was to consider what the faster pro servers do that the next tier does not. Maybe we are posting on the wrong thread and need to start a separate one?

Early extension is an inner attempt to have more control over your serve and robs you of some of your potential power. Early extension also gives you more room to compensate for other flaws in your execution.
Have a wonderful day Bottle, but careful with that broken glass,

[airforce1]

Bottle, I forgot to ask, what is so extraordinary about the clip?
I didn't see anything new, and I agree that the footage is excellent with a nice angle and all.
Which element was new and unexpected? There is always more to see and learn.
thanks,

[bottle]

needle, needle

I'd be more impressed by someone who
understood the seriousness of the question
and took a shot at answering it.

[airforce1]

bk to the original questions

*Do you think these movements are "normal" for a high level tennis player?*
Yes, this all seems pretty standard as compared to other top players

*How would you describe what happens here without a demonstration or video?*
Main by focusing on the different segments we see here, and hopefully in response to questions raised in the mind of the student during to practice. Once a student has a question in their mind, they are more ready to use the info.

*Can you translate all the movement you see in these clips to words? *
Sure it can be done, but communication is never 100%, as we prove everyday.

[airforce1]

bottle ( and others of course)

might not relate at all to what you are looking for, but one aspect of getting the elbow extended quickly is need. By delaying the extension at a lower and loaded position, the need is created to move the stick faster to get to the ball at the right time.
An similar example of this is in sprinting, where we learn that pumping the arms faster forces the strides to become quicker as well.

[bottle]

How Roger's or Anyone's Arm should best Extend

Thanks AF-1-- your answer qualifies with me as a bit of insight. And thanks,
Brian-- I just saw your post interspersed in here. I'll really be excited to see
the long version so soon-- in the next issue.

[ruymendes1]

Congratulations

Airforce 1,
Just to say that I aprecciate a lot your comments, specially because of your clearness and concision.
Even more, you answered Bottles´s questions with a superior manner.
About the delay forearm extension, I suspected that something like this was related to the great servers, but you are the first to have this insight, at least I'd never heard this from someone else.

[airforce1]

thank you!

It's nice when we have a place like this to share our ideas.
We all have to be patient in this medium, as so much can be lost in the process.

I'm glad you found these interesting and maybe helpful. The video on this site was helpful in proving what we had suspected on this, but couldn't be sure of by the eye on the court alone.

[bottle]

About Post # 22

New and unexpected to me simply in the context of what I was trying to do, and articulated in other posts by me, in other threads.

That would be: I was trying to straighten my arm with pre-load and release of shoulder rotors (upper arm twist)-- a distinct possibility for anyone.

To see so definitively that a great server like Federer does not do that threw that particular line of personal research into immediate question; in fact, I discontinued it.

I'm sure that before I started on those experiments I served like Federer, and when I was in the womb I REALLY served like Federer. Just kidding. But I am part Swiss.

The thing about constantly doing experiments is that you can come back to
earlier ones. When younger players (even my own brother) hear that kind of stuff they just think you're nuts, and going in circles, and never making progress. But I'm not boasting, just giving the facts, when I tell you that I am a better player at 67 (still two weeks to my birthday) than I was at 47 or
17. I was doing another sport of course in my prime-- rowing-- still, Bottle 67
knows he would beat Bottle 17.

That is why any injury is such a heavy blow.

[jeffreycounts]

2. None of the brilliant minds here will say how the arm extends so fast. They say WHEN but not HOW... And if they don't know, won't admit that I've noticed however, that when you put real pressure on tennis analysts they are apt to fly off in weird directions and go for the easiest possible
misunderstanding. Look-- I'm a little older. Everybody agrees here that the clips are maybe the most extraordinary ever. It's the NEXT thing people are trying to say that burns me-- Oh, look, Roger does exactly what I do. I and all my friends are wonderful players, just like Roger. And let the hackers eat bread!

As for your question about the arm, that doesn't make sense to me. A bent arm can only straighten upward from the tricep muscle. It's a simple tricep extension, isn't it?

What is interesting to me isn't that the arm straightens, it's the rotation and torquing motions of the arm and hand as you extend upward and then move through the ball.