Interactive Forum February 2024: Roger Federer Backhand Volley

[johnyandell]

Roger Federer Backhand Volley

So to go with our forehand volley footage last month (Click Here) this is rare footage of Roger Federer hitting backhand volleys in a clinic.

Gorgeous. Great turn, compact backswing. But do you are with Pat Cash in last month’s volley (Click Here) article that his swing is too much downward?

[stotty]

Tend to agree with Pat Cash. I watched a wonderful clip of Frank Sedgman once hitting numerous stunningly good volleys. The clip had been enhanced and was crystal clear to watch. Sedgman, a far better volleyer than Roger, had his racket much more behind the ball and hit through the ball much better as a consequence.

I think the more pronounced 'downward slicing trend' on the volley is a spill over from the modern sliced backhand where players use a steeper downward movement to deal with heavily top spun balls. It's kind of obvious that modern sliced backhand would seep into the backhand volley too...and it probably shouldn't have.

[jimlosaltos]

Tend to agree with Pat Cash. I watched a wonderful clip of Frank Sedgman once hitting numerous stunningly good volleys. The clip had been enhanced and was crystal clear to watch. Sedgman, a far better volleyer than Roger, had his racket much more behind the ball and hit through the ball much better as a consequence.

I think the more pronounced 'downward slicing trend' on the volley is a spill over from the modern sliced backhand where players use a steeper downward movement to deal with heavily top spun balls. It's kind of obvious that modern sliced backhand would seep into the backhand volley too...and it probably shouldn't have.

Does the down cut have anything to do with handling today's huge topspin?

I recall John's video on hitting slice backhands on incoming balls with heavy topspin -- John used his ball machine to simulate Rafa, I believe.
Without a hard cut, i.e. hitting a Budget type drive backhand, the ball flew into the parking lot <g>.
Could that also be a factor with pro-level volleys?

[stotty]

Does the down cut have anything to do with handling today's huge topspin?

I recall John's video on hitting slice backhands on incoming balls with heavy topspin -- John used his ball machine to simulate Rafa, I believe.
Without a hard cut, i.e. hitting a Budget type drive backhand, the ball flew into the parking lot <g>.
Could that also be a factor with pro-level volleys?

Personally, I don't think so. It could be the backhand slice simply seeping into the backhand volley. But also another factor could be that 95% of the time we are seeing players moving in behind overwhelming force and then hitting away higher volleys, seldom do we see players hitting low volleys. So players are typically playing volleys that are on the high side so are carving down the ball.

Interestingly, Roger was a better volleyer at the start of his career than at the end. He simply got out of practice (at proper all court volleying) as the game changed and the years went by.

[doctorhl]

I have noticed variances of hand tension with player volleys. I try to squeeze my grip at contact to about an 8 or 9. I was told that some pros squeeze about a 5 with the bottom 3 fingers to give just a minute amount of wrist flexion at contact. Trying this generated a tremendous amount of additional volley power, although it took practice to time the squeeze. Has anybody else experienced this, or is it just a weird idiosnyncracy on my part?

[jimlosaltos]

Personally, I don't think so. It could be the backhand slice simply seeping into the backhand volley. But also another factor could be that 95% of the time we are seeing players moving in behind overwhelming force and then hitting away higher volleys, seldom do we see players hitting low volleys. So players are typically playing volleys that are on the high side so are carving down the ball.

Interestingly, Roger was a better volleyer at the start of his career than at the end. He simply got out of practice (at proper all court volleying) as the game changed and the years went by.

During what I call "The Tony Roche Period", when Federer made a conscious return to a more net-centric game, Fed said something akin to "You have to commit to volleying throughout your games to be good at it." I presume as distinguished from waiting until one has a golden opportunity, then hitting the first volley in the set on a big point.

[tennisskip1515]

To my eye there are a couple of things at work here, which may or may not be spill over from an attempt to deal w/heavier top than was common years (ages?) ago. First, most modern players are using a stronger (i.e., more extreme) backhand grip (especially for topspin), and imo it encourages an “elbow pulling away” motion in hitting slice that was not part of the classic sliced backhand. It’s all but impossible to make the racquet face go “through” 8 balls in a row in the follow through on a sliced bh with that grip. Similarly, we see many more backhand volleys hit with that elbow pulling across the body rather than outwards behind the racquet. In this video of Federer his elbow is not locked straight at the hitting point, as we were taught (correctly, imo, for the grip) when earning to use a continental for volleying. Also, his racquet is not held “upwards” by his wrist in the 90? that went with that grip, which is also harder if not impossible to do with today’s common backhand grip that’s a strong eastern or even more extreme. The consequence of this is that slice today is more floating, less driven. While I believe the driven slice could be used to counter the heavier topspin, I think it requires tremendous exactitude in the hit, to an unacceptable degree, or else it flies up as @jimlosaltos noted above.

[stotty]

During what I call "The Tony Roche Period", when Federer made a conscious return to a more net-centric game, Fed said something akin to "You have to commit to volleying throughout your games to be good at it." I presume as distinguished from waiting until one has a golden opportunity, then hitting the first volley in the set on a big point.

I think that's very true. To be a truly great volleyer a player has to commit to it as a game-style; you cannot become a great volleyer doing it part-time...so to speak. Perhaps the greatest thing about Roger is he could have become any player he wanted to be. He is also testament that no player can become 'everything' they want to be.

[stotty]

To my eye there are a couple of things at work here, which may or may not be spill over from an attempt to deal w/heavier top than was common years (ages?) ago. First, most modern players are using a stronger (i.e., more extreme) backhand grip (especially for topspin), and imo it encourages an “elbow pulling away” motion in hitting slice that was not part of the classic sliced backhand. It’s all but impossible to make the racquet face go “through” 8 balls in a row in the follow through on a sliced bh with that grip. Similarly, we see many more backhand volleys hit with that elbow pulling across the body rather than outwards behind the racquet. In this video of Federer his elbow is not locked straight at the hitting point, as we were taught (correctly, imo, for the grip) when earning to use a continental for volleying. Also, his racquet is not held “upwards” by his wrist in the 90? that went with that grip, which is also harder if not impossible to do with today’s common backhand grip that’s a strong eastern or even more extreme. The consequence of this is that slice today is more floating, less driven. While I believe the driven slice could be used to counter the heavier topspin, I think it requires tremendous exactitude in the hit, to an unacceptable degree, or else it flies up as @jimlosaltos noted above.

When it comes to slice I find many players adopt a relatively mild grip, switching from a strong eastern in the case of one-handed players. I don't think players are using strong backhand grips to slice with as this generally inhibits a correct follow through.

[stotty]

I have noticed variances of hand tension with player volleys. I try to squeeze my grip at contact to about an 8 or 9. I was told that some pros squeeze about a 5 with the bottom 3 fingers to give just a minute amount of wrist flexion at contact. Trying this generated a tremendous amount of additional volley power, although it took practice to time the squeeze. Has anybody else experienced this, or is it just a weird idiosnyncracy on my part?

I use a relaxed grip when volleying mostly. Relaxation is the key to better timing and easy power in my view. Adopting a 'muscular' grip tends to tighten the arm and reduce power.

[seano]

The pinky and ring finger are the 2 most powerful fingers on your hand. Minimal movement is required when a ball with pace is hit to you, squeeze with the bottom 2 fingers, right before contact. You can choose to add pace, maintain pace or take pace off the shot.

Sean

[jcctennis]

Read a very interesting study that the downward swing we see today is a result of poly string. In short the article explains gut we used to use pockets the ball on contact allowing for a horizontal stroke path. Polyester strings do not pocket and must be snapped by the vertical downward motion to obtain spin and thus control of the ball. Can you confirm or deny this John?

[seano]

In the teaching system section, John has 2 very good articles. First serve - spin and placement + Second serve - spin and placement. It gives a lot of great info.

[jimlosaltos]

In the teaching system section, John has 2 very good articles. First serve - spin and placement + Second serve - spin and placement. It gives a lot of great info.

Some links.

Teaching System Section:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/teaching_systems/

First serve spin and placement:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/teaching_systems/john_yandell/serve_spins_and_placements/

Second serve spin and placement:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/teaching_systems/john_yandell/2nd_serve_spin_placement/

Thanks for pointing out, Seano, hadn't noticed the whole suite.

[johnyandell]

JC,
Not sure what you mean by downward swing? As for pocketing go to the HS Archives and scroll down to Ball Racket interactions. You can see exactly what does and doesn't happen with poly strings!