Interactive Forum July 2023 Jannik Sinner Serve

[jimlosaltos]

Jim, has the Dog dislocated his shoulder in your picture, just a distorted camera view, or a rubber man ISR?

I believe you're seeing The Rubber Band Man in operation.

That's from a very good match he had vs Fed at Indian Wells. Pushed Fed hard before Fed, running along the back wall ,retrieved a smash, and in the nasty wind, Dolgopolov missed the second overhead. I remember it well.

Dog used to do a drill where he would put a ball on his strings, pull the racket out, hit the ball down to bounce it off the ground, then hit his serve as the ball was on its way up.

I can't even get the ball in the right place tossing it <g>.

Super natural snap/ flex.

[doctorhl]

An automated, height adjustable, overhead ball drop would be nice to use to help dial in the rthym of the toss and swing before actually tossing for service. Like you experienced, the "Dog racket ball bounce technique" simulating the ball toss was a disaster!

[llll]

i am sorry i have not read thru every post
darren cahill in a segment on espn noted among the changes they had made in sinners game was going to the pin point stance but he did not state why.
i read in the beginning that several of you had noticed this change
is there a concesus as to why it was done?
the benefit?
is it better for everyone?
thanks in advance

[stroke]

[QUOTE=stotty;n101519]It's official. Sinner has reverted to pinpoint. Not full pinpoint I guess as the feet are still a little spaced and don't fully clip up together. I am not sure how much it resembles his original serve before he experimented with platform. It would be nice to compare the three: the original serve, the move to platform, and the current serve. I haven't seen that much of Sinner this Wimbledon but in his quarter final match his 1st serve percentage was 55%. He was hitting it real hard and placing it well also.

The truth will rest somewhere in the stats. We all love platform on the forum and Sinner stuck with it for a quite while, but did the stats show a benefit of switching to platform? Or maybe he just couldn't get on with platform. It would be nice to chat

[johnyandell]

Sounds like Darren... Personally I think a move in the wrong direction...

[don_budge]

i am sorry i have not read thru every post
darren cahill in a segment on espn noted among the changes they had made in sinners game was going to the pin point stance but he did not state why.
i read in the beginning that several of you had noticed this change
is there a concesus as to why it was done?
the benefit?
is it better for everyone?
thanks in advance

Man! Where have you been? I hope all is well with you and great to hear you post. I have been reporting on the change in the Sinner motion for over two years. I introduced the subject to the forum and it got zero traction. Lack of discerning posters is most likely the reason. I was so impressed with the progress that Sinner made initially. Even the thought that he would change was impressive. But the motion stalled after a while and I think it was because of lack of attention to detail. This I attribute to a lack of coaching knowledge which there is no lack of these days. The lack that is...there is no lack of that. Now they have resorted back to the pinpoint and even johnyandell thinks this is a move in the wrong direction. It absolutely is. Lack of follow through on the part of the coaching brain trust.

[don_budge]

Some have talked about the major knee bend. Notice how his back leg looks to have quite a bit more knee bend. I believe this is because the stance is so closed (from the perspective of the back foot being so far towards the add alley and the front foot relatively so far away towards the deuce alley). I think the more closed a stance is the larger the relative difference will be of each legs amount of knee bend. Notice, as a result (it seems to me), near the lowest point in the knee bend the back foots heel is more thn a little higher off the ground than the front foots heel.

I noticed the stance. My first impression was that he had gone "side saddle" ala John McEnroe. As a matter of fact it would be interesting to see him experiment with the full blown McEnroe motion. In golf there are drills to place the back foot so far back in the stance to introduce a better swing plane. The knee bend seems to me to be over cooked. Brian Gordon opined that leg drive was not the biggest factor in producing speed or spin in the motion.

Sinner has a excellent bordering on extraordinary ability to explode on the ball in his ground strokes. Somehow he doesn't give me the impression that he is maximizing his potential to explode on his serve. Don't misunderstand me...he gets a lot of mustard on the ball as it is. Yet it seems to me the platform was not nearly maximized or thought through. It was if someone had a great idea and then gave up on it because they didn't know how to iron out the wrinkles.

At any rate...super interesting subject. I felt this initially when I brought it up some years ago here on the forum. Without any traction...btw. There has been lots of chitter chatter amongst some that professional tennis players are reluctant to change. I had high hopes that Sinner would be a role model for crossing that rubicon. But that is modern tennis for you. A real lack of imagination among not only the players but the "teams" of advisors and coaches that are ever present. I wonder how these people really earn their money. I'll bet some of them are quoting statistics. The aforementioned John McEnroe wasn't traveling with a coach for years. Apparently he had his own ideas that were instilled in him by the great coaches of his youth.

Not to mention our very own johnyandell who did a highly credible intervention in his serve motion once it got off track. Interesting parallels between your comment about Sinner's stance and John McEnroe. But then again...one must know how to connect the dots. The three little dots.

[llll]

Sounds like Darren... Personally I think a move in the wrong direction...

thank you for your reply

[llll]

Man! Where have you been? I hope all is well with you and great to hear you post. I have been reporting on the change in the Sinner motion for over two years. I introduced the subject to the forum and it got zero traction. Lack of discerning posters is most likely the reason. I was so impressed with the progress that Sinner made initially. Even the thought that he would change was impressive. But the motion stalled after a while and I think it was because of lack of attention to detail. This I attribute to a lack of coaching knowledge which there is no lack of these days. The lack that is...there is no lack of that. Now they have resorted back to the pinpoint and even johnyandell thinks this is a move in the wrong direction. It absolutely is. Lack of follow through on the part of the coaching brain trust.

thank you for your replies

[don_budge]

Jannik Sinner slow motion platform:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wedNLanoXc

"I think we (his team) have improved a lot the serve. I still have days where I struggle a little bit more. I have days where I serve very well,” he said.
“I felt like against Andrey (Rublev) I served well in the round before. But also (against Ruusuvuori) I served good. Especially in the important moments when he had a breakpoint, I served well there.’
“But still there is a lot of work to do. We tried to find the right motion, the right toss and the right tempo. Not serve every ball in the same motion and then changing the ball a little bit.”"

Jannik Sinner platform: 2:03, 2:33, 2:46, 5:07, 5:17, 5:24, 5:32, 5:45,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDoLnf5cElg

It can get frustrating listening to former players discuss technique on broadcasts. During the final, with Djokovic serving 1-3, in the fifth, he must have been having a wrist issue during the previous change over. Jim Courier starts discussing the reason Djokovic is struggling and serving long is because of his inability to snap his wrist down. Snapping his wrist would bring the ball down faster and allow it to land in the service box. Chris Evert has said similar things in the past. I know it's nit-picking but frustrating none the less.

seano...I hear you brother. The commentatoes have to make a living and sometimes they just say whatever comes into their heads. I am not convinced that being a great/excellent tennis player automatically makes you a decent coach. Djokovic served poorly because his legs were taken out from under him. Simple as that.

But it is Jannik Sinner in the spotlight in this thread. It is clear that his coaches are lost as well. They started out trying to wean him off his pinpoint stance but did not have the collective IQ to manage it. Think that's an exaggeration? Here below is another idiot trying to make heads or tails about Sinner's motion. The truth is...it is one convoluted motion. I remember one poster on the forum took exception to me saying that about another service motion. Sampras or Federer? Get a clue. Sinner is just like every other human being that plays tennis...or golf. All tennis coaches should be required to play and study golf. The golf swing is just as complicated and mythical as the service motion. But it all boils down to the same thing.

What is power I ask the student? Control is power. What is control? Well...depending upon the situation it is the sum of the parts of speed, spin and placement. Control the ball and you control the match. Control the match and you control your opponent. No wonder guys like Federer, Djokovic and Nadal are borderline obsessive/compulsive in their controlling behavior. Real psychopaths. So Jannik Sinner needs to get a grip. Then he needs to get a stance. Then he needs to get a backswing. Once he has these ingredients PERFECTED...then we can move on to the delivery. Then tactics.

Obviously the brain trust of Jannik Sinner went down the path of platform seeking something that was missing. But they lost their way. In fact...I would hazard to guess that they had absolutely no idea what the hell they were doing. After some initial cosmetic improvement...nothing. Back to pinpoint. Back to the original that wasn't satisfactory to the player. He knows that it doesn't "feel" right. Jeez...the least little malfeasance can throw the whole darn thing out of kilter. The thing is ready to jump the track at the first sign of nerves. Of conditions. Trying to control that thing is like riding a horse that doesn't want to be ridden.

Here is the real shame. Jannik Sinner is an exceptionally talented athlete. He has the goods that enable him to explode on the tennis ball beyond his actual physical capacity. But with regards to his serve...he is lost. Relatively lost mind you. Actually he is fairly effective with what he does. Heck...he could do it any number of way and reach the level of serving he is at. But the issue is always for the student or player a question of potential. In his case he is barely scratching in my assessment. The razor thin margins in competitive tennis requires one to milk every last ounce out of the player or risk the loss of a close contest here, there or anywhere.

His example here is so good for aspiring tennis coaches. It never ceases to amaze me that, for instance, I might get a player set up and then develop a fairly good back swing. Then the player gets drunk on that feeling...the feeling that they are approaching serving nirvana. Lo and behold...they think that they can figure it out themselves from there on out. Or better yet...they can have any old coach get them to the promised land. The truth is much more complicated. The truth is this...you never see golfer quit going to the range trying to figure out just a tad more into their swing. Golfers are mining for gold. Not leaving any stone unturned. The truth is also that 99% of golfers are lost too. There are secrets and mysteries in swings such as the service motion and the golf swing. The Nike SWOOSH. From beginning to the end. From grip and stance to the very tip of the follow through.

I had this happen to me recently...doing some online coaching. A couple of real promising sessions online...then I didn't hear from the student for weeks. Then I did hear from them and the motion was returning to it convoluted state. People are strange...you know. They have their ideas. I guess I do too. That makes me strange also. Don't you think so?

https://www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/xwa1ly/how_jannik_sinners_serve_has_changed_in_the_past

For me...serving and golf swings are built for accuracy first. Speed and spin are then built into the motion. For more on my philosophy read "Zen and the Art of Archery" by Eugen Herrigel.

https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/102584-zen-in-der-kunst-des-bogenschie-ens

Thank you for your attention. Thank you Larry for you question. I hope this helps.

[jimlosaltos]

i am sorry i have not read thru every post
darren cahill in a segment on espn noted among the changes they had made in sinners game was going to the pin point stance but he did not state why.
i read in the beginning that several of you had noticed this change
is there a concesus as to why it was done?
the benefit?
is it better for everyone?
thanks in advance

Hello. For context, Sinner was pinpoint, switched to platform, now switched back to, I guess semi-pinpoint per stroke's post.

[llll]

this helps alot
i always appreciated your insight and perspective
i especially like how you look at "control the ball you control the match" and building the house with concrete block from the ground up everything strong and PERFECT
thanks for your response
i read zen in the art of archery a long time ago
probably would be of benefit to re read it

[jimlosaltos]

ATP's "Tennis Data Innovations" or TDI has an overkill of stats on how the change in Sinner's serve has worked.

Short version: Since change in service motion in June, Jannik Sinner's first serve efficiency is up over 3% (from 61.6% to 64.5%) and service games won up 4% to 88%.

His second serve shows more I'm provident with more BPs saved, more serves in on BPs, and 3 MPHs more to 97 mph average.

I'll upload on of these ...

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[stroke]

That is good stuff there. I would think Sinners team is aware of his quantitative improvement.

[jimlosaltos]

Highest unreturned serves of the quartet in the semifinals today at 46% - all of them very good servers.
And 10 aces in 12 service games.

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