Interactive Forum July 2023 Jannik Sinner Serve

[jimlosaltos]

Thanks Jim. I always worry about youngsters who copy movement styles that may never be compatible with body types. Contact at 1 foot((Sinner) to 4 foot ( Isner) must mean something. I wonder how far in Schwartzmann's contact is? Variability in degrees of back arch also seem be of note. Shoulder and back flexibilty and conditioning must be a high priority for some.

Teaching juniors must be both very challenging and rewarding

[don_budge]

A little history on the Jannik Sinner service motion:

2023 Australian Open...Men's Round of Sixteen (Stefanos Tsitsipas vs. Jannik Sinner)

I just did to see if I still had it in me. The header. It used to be my trademark for my posts. A thoughtful clue for what was about to be. Here it is. My one thought regarding this contest is there are actually two thoughts. Number one...Tsitsipas holds a 4-1 head to head advantage. Advantage Tsitsipas. Number two...it is the question about the serve as well it should be in men's tennis. Ladies too come to think of it. Who has more gas in the tank when it comes to the serve? For a while there I was impressed with Sinner's commitment to improve his motion, but it appears to have come to a standstill. After some initial improvement...nothing. So far to my eye. Tsitsipas on the other hand has not lived up to his full potential in the serve department, yet he cannot be ruled out due to extraordinary athletism. This match will come down to the stronger serve.

Sebastien Korda through after rattling his opponents cage.

The Jannik Sinner service motion is the story. He is learning more about it an a match to match basis. His tactics are just beginning to evolve. Splendid! Huge win for Alcarez in the bottom half at this stage of his career. Now if he can just get by Zverev and Sinner takes care of business up on top...we will see a glimpse of the future.

10/24/21

Truer words have never been spoken regarding the service motion and the service game. Jannik Sinner has done himself a huge by adapting and realising he needed to improve his motion. I am somewhat floored by the rather substantial change he has made. This is the closest thing we have seen to a classic service motion and the frictionless delivery that I advocate. The interesting thing is that Sinner's entire game was a notch higher and the level didn't drop during the entire tournament. Straight sets the entire week. Lots of 6-2 sets. Just mowed the field down just as he should. It was a tournament for him to win from the beginning of the draw sheet. This is what it looks like to a champion. Very impressive week. He goes right back to work next week and I am ginning for a Tsitsipas versus Sinner semi-final.

10/24/21
On the other hand in Antwerp...Jannik Sinner's new and improved service motion carried him to the title as he demolished Diego Schwartzman in the finals. Never in trouble on his service game he just rolled the Argentinian. He has something Gonzalezesque going on with the backswing that gently and without any hint of hurry begins its descent behind his back. Like a rollercoaster car coming over the hill. He hasn't unveiled the finished product yet as he is just getting the feel of the effortless and frictionless motion. I predict he is going to banging it in the not too distant future. Truly a lesson for Tsitsipas, Zverev et al.

. 10/23/21
Lloyd Harris advances to test Jannik Sinner and Jensen Brooksby keeps his part of the bargain to face Diego Schwartzman. This tournament could certainly use a Sinner vs. Brooksby final. Or maybe it's just me. Sinner's new and improved service motion has held up quite nicely and the rule of thumb with improved service motions is...the rest of the game goes as the serve goes. He looks to be that much sharper. A better serve means poorer returns which means a ball more easily to be aggressive with. It also means that it affords one to take chances on the opponents serve. Do you see the synergistic effect?

I watched just a bit of all four matches. Sinner took down his opponent in routine fashion. Holding on to his serve. Harris managed to take Fuscovics going away...which is impressive as Fuscovics seems to by very fit. I first noticed Harris a couple of years ago at Wimbledon where he lost first round to Roger Federer. All roads do lead to Federer. The Living Proof. Harris managed to take the first set off of Roger. He was impressive...for that set. Brooksby won going away too. His unorthodox style is going to put off a lot of players in the same way they find it hard to put Medvedev under their thumb. It's not that he just doesn't go away either. He is rather sneaky aggressive. He is what you call a percentage player who takes every possibility under consideration before making his play. It is all done instantly and therefore instinctively. Schwartzman? There is nothing very unpredictable about this undersized, overachiever. His backhand reminds me so much of Aaron Krickstein's and that goes for the slice as well. It's uncanny...like deja vu.

. 10/23/21
Speaking of loving a tennis player's game...I was somewhat impressed with Lorenzo Musetti and Jannik Sinner. But then my impression came to a screeching halt when I remembered another Italian with a truly elegant game. I'm referring to Adriano Panatta. Musetti swooped in on the net a couple of times and knifed a couple of decent backhand volleys. The Musetti single handed backhand held up to a point with the Sinner two handed backhand. Funny how my standards can lapse in a weak moment. Hoping for something to happen on the tour. Hoping that someone will emerge to save the day from the monotonous cookie cutter strong gripped forehand, two handed backhand mode. I was almost seeing Musetti twirling a Dunlop Maxply or a Slazenger wood model. The two of them had a typical slugfest. Lots of drilling the ball from the baseline without much variation...except the Musetti slice backhand. As close to the knifing action that left with Roger Federer. In the end...it was another yawner. I only lasted twenty or thirty minutes in a couple of sittings watching it.

Jannik Sinner's new service motion continues to impress. He served out the first set easily...which is sometimes a dicey situation. He is getting more pop on the ball and it opens up a whole another dimension to his game. The variety of deliveries and placements you can make off such a motion changes the depth of resources that a player brings to the table in a match if you can take advantage of it. This is a tournament that he should be setting his sites on winning. With any luck we shall see a Sinner/Brooksby final. Then we can talk about comparative service motions.

. 10/07/21
I was watching just a bit of a replay between Sinner and Monfils and I could not get over how good Sinner's service motion looked. I wasn't that impressed with it before but I honestly couldn't remember what it was he was doing. The one thing that stood out to me was he was using a platform stance. I thought that it was a pin point before. I did a little research on the web and came up with this video that validated what I suspected about his stance...he had changed it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68ge53dBrls

There has been discussion about the Zverev serve and now what's his name...the American "phenom". Brooksby? Not impressed at all with that serve. But Sinner really ironed out some kinks by going to platform...keep in mind that both johnyandell and BrianGordon are also advocates of platform. As I am. I was impressed with Sinner's motion and trust me...this opens up the path going forwards. There is much to improve and now he has the solid foundation to work from.

[don_budge]

Interactive Forum July 2023 Jannik Sinner Serve

Here is a gorgeous frame by frame slow motion clip of Jannik Sinner’s first serve created by Jim Fawcette. Notice the platform stance, the timing of the racket on the windup, the deep knee bend, the timing of the racket entry into the backswing, the contact point, and the full rotation of the hand arm and racket in the followthrough.

No wonder it’s a great serve! But what else do you see?

[mp4t]https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/forum/2023/July_SinnerServeDeuce_IW23.mp4[/mp4t]

The first thing I see is an incomplete video. Missing? The setup, preserve ritual and initiation of the backswing. Very important fundamental aspects in evaluating any service motion. Particularly so here as it is all about the track of the swing. So many years ago...geoffwilliams posted a Pete Sampras serve that had a yellow line tracing the path of the tip of Pete's racquet throughout his swing. That was an impressive piece of video creativity. More missing from this video? Yes...unfortunately we are missing the ending. Vitally important to see the motion from beginning to end to thoroughly understand what is going on in the motion. Like the Nike "swoosh"...it wouldn't be a swoosh if you edited out the tips at both ends.

One more thing. The frame by frame substitute for the actual "motion" video completely eliminated the sense of rhythm or tempo from the observer's eye. Another very fundamental aspect of serve analysis. Coming soon...a scathing critique. Darren Cahill take note.

Analysis to follow.

[don_budge]

I saw just a couple of games of the Schwartzman/Sinner match. Trying to catch a glimpse of the current version of Sinner's pinpoint stance. The camera work is a bit suspect if you are trying to get a feel for the serve motion. Many times they zoom in on the top half of the player as they begin to serve and then zoom out so you can never really get a feel for the entire motion. The angles are not quite the best either. Inconclusive.

[tommyhorton]

Just checking out Janicks serve against Halys. Not sure if you would call it a pinpoint. He is sliding his back foot up to about a foot behind his front before he launches. He is more square to the net and not as deep of a kneebend. Looks easier than the other motion

[jimlosaltos]

Per Wimbledon: "

• Through the 3rd Round, Sinner has won 77% of points while serving, 2nd among players in the field of 128

[jimlosaltos]

Someone asked about John Isner's landing point, or how far into the court he hit the ball? Sorry I can't remember who to tag, but there is a TPN Tour Portrait with info on that at this link:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/tourportraits/jim_fawcette/serve_contact_height/

Basically, Isner is such an outlier I don't know how to project his motion onto anyone much shorter, but here is one image from that album.

I did a video years and years ago where I got on a step-ladder and looked down into the serve box from Isner's impact point. Took a picture then of the front half of the service box. It's like mortals spiking an overhead from the service line.

filedata/fetch?id=101474&d=1688924605&type=thumb

[jimlosaltos]

Just checking out Janicks serve against Halys. Not sure if you would call it a pinpoint. He is sliding his back foot up to about a foot behind his front before he launches. He is more square to the net and not as deep of a kneebend. Looks easier than the other motion

Good question: Here's a direct link (at bottom) to Sinner serving from Wimbledon's own vid this year/week. He's tiny here, no slow motion, at the far end, but you can see him step up. Did he switch back to pinpoint? It's not what he was doing in 2021, if I remember correctly, more conventional pinpoint. Don't blink or you'll miss it. So ...

Screen Caps. Teen, tiny, sorry but best I can find. Hey, it's not TPN

I'll put the "before" step image in a response. Uploading 2 isn't working for me right now.

2 of 2 right foot right behind left.



Video here: If you use the "Gear" icon in the lower right, you can slow down playback as low as 25%, which might help.

https://youtu.be/QCP0ll6wTvM?t=171

[jimlosaltos]

Here's a tiny screen cap from that vid with the "before" stepping position.

filedata/fetch?id=101480&d=1688930294&type=thumb

[jeremy93]

Some have talked about the major knee bend. Notice how his back leg looks to have quite a bit more knee bend. I believe this is because the stance is so closed (from the perspective of the back foot being so far towards the add alley and the front foot relatively so far away towards the deuce alley). I think the more closed a stance is the larger the relative difference will be of each legs amount of knee bend. Notice, as a result (it seems to me), near the lowest point in the knee bend the back foots heel is more thn a little higher off the ground than the front foots heel.

[doctorhl]

Someone asked about John Isner's landing point, or how far into the court he hit the ball? Sorry I can't remember who to tag, but there is a TPN Tour Portrait with info on that at this link:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/tourportraits/jim_fawcette/serve_contact_height/

Basically, Isner is such an outlier I don't know how to project his motion onto anyone much shorter, but here is one image from that album.

I did a video years and years ago where I got on a step-ladder and looked down into the serve box from Isner's impact point. Took a picture then of the front half of the service box. It's like mortals spiking an overhead from the service line.

filedata/fetch?id=101474&d=1688924605&type=thumb

Jim, Got any serve footage of Schwartzmann or other height challenged players to compare landing points and contact height? At 5'8", I am looking for excuses.

[stotty]

It's official. Sinner has reverted to pinpoint. Not full pinpoint I guess as the feet are still a little spaced and don't fully clip up together. I am not sure how much it resembles his original serve before he experimented with platform. It would be nice to compare the three: the original serve, the move to platform, and the current serve. I haven't seen that much of Sinner this Wimbledon but in his quarter final match his 1st serve percentage was 55%. He was hitting it real hard and placing it well also.

The truth will rest somewhere in the stats. We all love platform on the forum and Sinner stuck with it for a quite while, but did the stats show a benefit of switching to platform? Or maybe he just couldn't get on with platform. It would be nice to chat with him about it.

[stroke]

It's official. Sinner has reverted to pinpoint. Not full pinpoint I guess as the feet are still a little spaced and don't fully clip up together. I am not sure how much it resembles his original serve before he experimented with platform. It would be nice to compare the three: the original serve, the move to platform, and the current serve. I haven't seen that much of Sinner this Wimbledon but in his quarter final match his 1st serve percentage was 55%. He was hitting it real hard and placing it well also.

The truth will rest somewhere in the stats. We all love platform on the forum and Sinner stuck with it for a quite while, but did the stats show a benefit of switching to platform? Or maybe he just couldn't get on with platform. It would be nice to chat with him about it.

I used to like Monfils service motion. He at one time had kind of a Roddick narrow platform set up. Then he went to what Sinner is now doing, starting with a severe closed stance and moving to the the narrow platform, as he moves up his back foot on the toss. Just an observation.

[jimlosaltos]

Jim, Got any serve footage of Schwartzmann or other height challenged players to compare landing points and contact height? At 5'8", I am looking for excuses.

Hah! You're the same height as me. From a tennis perspective, my sympathies and condolences <g>.

Never seen Schwartzman live, but here are a couple of height-disadvantaged players that do or did extremely well serving. Don't have the impact point, sorry, and these photos are from years back, but perhaps they are of interest.

Ricardo Berankis is listed at 5 ft 9 in, sort of a more muscular Leyton Hewitt. At his peak he could reach 130 mph. Got to number 50 or so in world

Benjamin Becker, 5 ft 10 inch, could reach 135 mph, NCAA player, then ATP 30 or so.

Best of the diminutive lot serving wise is one of my personal favorites, The Dog, Alexander Dolgopolov. Supposedly 5 ft 10 in -- on his tippy toes, I suspect. At his peak he was the only sub-six-foot player in the top 10 in aces. Had his pro career cut short of Gilbert's syndrome, an autoimmune disease with fatigue symptoms much like what has plagued Venus Williams. Could hit 135 mph or short wide slice that sent opponents into the side wall. Now, I've had differences on here about his elevation serving. He has hit his snap serve almost out of his hand with no jump, but I, personally, think he takes major air on some of them. Others differ.

I call Dolgopolov 'the Rubber Band Man', must be a ball of fast-twitch muscle.

Berankis of Lithuania, 2011

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Dog, 2014
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Becker, 2011

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[doctorhl]

Jim, has the Dog dislocated his shoulder in your picture, just a distorted camera view, or a rubber man ISR?