Interactive Forum July 2023 Jannik Sinner Serve

[don_budge]

I noticed that in Halle...but didn't want to wake anybody up.

I have to note that I was posting on Jannik Sinner's serve in detail in the past year when he changed to platform but having been frozen out of the discussion here on the forum by the Big Three my comments got no traction, no air, no responses, no attention. Which is fine...and laughable.

[stroke]

I also feel I have been frozen out. Stroke is very offended, super offended. For shizzle my nizzles. You won't have Stroke to kick around much longer.

[jimlosaltos]

Jim and JY: At the moment of impact on Jim's post #5 in this thread, if you dropped a plumb line from the center of racket face to the ground, can you guestimate how far into the court the plumb would drop? I am not fully appreciating the amount of sidebend and back arch needed, and where exactly on his toss arc contact was made. I also am having trouble appreciating the amount of external rotation needed when the shoulder angle appears to be about 90 degrees flexed while elbow is at 110 degrees in second 42 of the video.. I dont think even at birth I was that flexible! I know JY and Brian Gordon have discussed this, I just need to find it. Would be Sinner considered average or an outlier for ESR and back arch?

Sorry to be slow responding. I've been in ER all day with S.O.

I don't consider myself the expert to answer this but posting the photos was my way of asking the same question you pose.

The greatest ISR I've seen is John Isner. I've posted here, on TPN, images showing his hand so far rotated his palm faces straight up. That's, what 270 deg while Sinner, Fed el al are doing 180 deg? Are there benefits?

As for the back arch and "drop". I posted on TPN ages ago that Isner's ball impact (at Peak Isner) was four(4) feet into the court. FOUR FEET. John isn't serving, he's spiking overheads.

Jannik isn't doing that but the impact is way to the left of his head. Purpose? Result? Does this have a downside? Accuracy, repeatability.

I hope someone here will answer that

[jimlosaltos]

I have to note that I was posting on Jannik Sinner's serve in detail in the past year when he changed to platform but having been frozen out of the discussion here on the forum by the Big Three my comments got no traction, no air, no responses, no attention. Which is fine...and laughable.

I posted crediting you for that a while back and you said thanks. I was looking for a comparative video on YT of the before-and-after this am to double check just what you wrote here.

I trust Darren Cahill's coaching more than anyone and would LOVE to hear what he's up to.

[jimlosaltos]

I also feel I have been frozen out. Stroke is very offended, super offended. For shizzle my nizzles. You want have Stroke to kick around much longer.

[johnyandell]

Don't get it Stroke! Help me understand pls!

[jeffreycounts]

Jeffrey, at the risk of providing more than you're interested in, it was shot at 120 fps. But this was still photography, which I converted into video afterwards, so it's not exactly analogous.

I didn't know there was a camera that could shoot stills at 120 fps. That's wild. Sounds like the "pre-capture" makes it possible. The result of all your work from takeing the stills to importing into lightroom to video is really spectacular. I've never seen anything quite like it. The image just pops.

[jimlosaltos]

I didn't know there was a camera that could shoot stills at 120 fps. That's wild. Sounds like the "pre-capture" makes it possible. The result of all your work from takeing the stills to importing into lightroom to video is really spectacular. I've never seen anything quite like it. The image just pops.

Thanks again

[stroke]

I also feel I have been frozen out. Stroke is very offended, super offended. For shizzle my nizzles. You won't have Stroke to kick around much longer.

This was an in jest post. Stroke is not really offended.

[jimlosaltos]

So, responding to some questions here, I spent some time reviewing earlier video online of SInner's serve.

Here's my amateur take:
Changes from 2021 to 2022: in other 2022 video, Jannik started to delay the take back of his racket from 2021, creating more "lag", and deepened his knee bend. All platform.

In my video for TPN, the knee bend is even deeper than in those 2022 vids on YT. I believe Jannik has also moved his toss my video. The impact point is still above his left/racket arm shoulder, but he appears to me to be bending further and his toss is further to his left along the baseline. There seems to be an increased leftward angle in his wrist at impact. On one kick serve, the toss moves even further to his left.

I'm not going to embarrass myself by guessing what the objective is. Hopefully, someone will explain that.
His motion does seem more complex now, which has potential downsides. But I suppose if one is a pro, hitting serves every single day, one can manage that complexity.

[stroke]

So, responding to some questions here, I spent some time reviewing earlier video online of SInner's serve.

Here's my amateur take:
Changes from 2021 to 2022: in other 2022 video, Jannik started to delay the take back of his racket from 2021, creating more "lag", and deepened his knee bend. All platform.

In my video for TPN, the knee bend is even deeper than in those 2022 vids on YT. I believe Jannik has also moved his toss my video. The impact point is still above his left/racket arm shoulder, but he appears to me to be bending further and his toss is further to his left along the baseline. There seems to be an increased leftward angle in his wrist at impact. On one kick serve, the toss moves even further to his left.

I'm not going to embarrass myself by guessing what the objective is. Hopefully, someone will explain that.
His motion does seem more complex now, which has potential downsides. But I suppose if one is a pro, hitting serves every single day, one can manage that complexity.

I think it is clear with the more closed stance, along with the toss at times being more to the left with more bending, he has increased the action and the margins on his serve. The more pronounced delayed take back to me just turbo charges a more violent motion, a la maybe Goran. We will never know, but I would guess he is getting more rpm's on his serve, when he goes for that, than he ever has.

Side note, a lot of us considered the heavy Sampras 2nd serve the gold standard, but JY quantitatively showed us Roddick actually produced even more rpm's. To me that comes down to the absolute violent nature of his motion. Sinner to me has stepped up his "violence".

[jimlosaltos]

I think it is clear with the more closed stance, along with the toss at times being more to the left with more bending, he has increased the action and the margins on his serve. The more pronounced delayed take back to me just turbo charges a more violent motion, a la maybe Goran. We will never know, but I would guess he is getting more rpm's on his serve, when he goes for that, than he ever has.

Side note, a lot of us considered the heavy Sampras 2nd serve the gold standard, but JY quantitatively showed us Roddick actually produced even more rpm's. To me that comes down to the absolute violent nature of his motion. Sinner to me has stepped up his "violence".

I like your use of "violence" here for the motion around impact. Concise.

[stroke]

Sinner to me a bit if an enigma. He hits such a big ball off of everything, but he is such a slight thin build, nothing like Roddick or Sampras. He is maybe 6'2", or 6'3", not usually tall by today's standards. I would say he is very close to maximizing his serving potential.

[jimlosaltos]

Jim and JY: At the moment of impact on Jim's post #5 in this thread, if you dropped a plumb line from the center of racket face to the ground, can you guestimate how far into the court the plumb would drop? I am not fully appreciating the amount of sidebend and back arch needed, and where exactly on his toss arc contact was made. I also am having trouble appreciating the amount of external rotation needed when the shoulder angle appears to be about 90 degrees flexed while elbow is at 110 degrees in second 42 of the video.. I dont think even at birth I was that flexible! I know JY and Brian Gordon have discussed this, I just need to find it. Would be Sinner considered average or an outlier for ESR and back arch?

Pulled this pic just for you To me, Jannik does NOT go particularly far into the court. More of his energy goes upward. Hard to tell from straight on, but I'd say maybe a foot into the court?

As far as I can see, the only change to his stance was that his platform was broadened, perhaps for stability to enable the even-deeper knee bend?
Some others have said how feet point has changed, but can't say myself.

P.S. Takes him a long time to recover, having to gather all those long limbs flying around <g>.

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[doctorhl]

Thanks Jim. I always worry about youngsters who copy movement styles that may never be compatible with body types. Contact at 1 foot((Sinner) to 4 foot ( Isner) must mean something. I wonder how far in Schwartzmann's contact is? Variability in degrees of back arch also seem be of note. Shoulder and back flexibilty and conditioning must be a high priority for some.