Women vs Men Groundstroke Speed

[jimlosaltos]

InfoSys/ Hawkeye data from Roland Garros shows how many WTA players' average velocity on groundstrokes matches all but the top stats for ATP players. None of the women get into the upper right "golden quadrant" (to use the Boston Consulting Group's contagious if annoying jargon), but the fastest womens' strokes match up with top names from the other side.

This graphic was created by virtual bud @Vestige_du_jour. Red dots =WTA while Blue = ATP. Bottom axis is forehand speed, vertical axis is backhand speed.

Now, there are caveats and whatever including -- women tend to hit flatter than the mens, women tend to redline more (often stated by hard to prove). And some players were in fewer matches thus outliers would have more impact on their averages, etc.

Some correlations and things that stand out:

Sabalenka is in a cluster with Sinner and Zverev. I've noted in some matches I've watched that per TV stats Aryna "averaged" 80 MPH on her forehand -- which equals the fastest for a season on the ATP. (Yes, one match is not a season).

Giorgi is amusingly paired with her Italian compatriot Fognni -- proving size isn't the only route to velocity.

Swiatek is in a cluster with Rune, Djokovic, and Alcaraz. And she certainly is not flattening out her forehand.

The women approach ATP speeds despite almost none of them using one-handed backhands.

Sidebar: Despite Craig O'Shannessy's analysis Ruud has a significantly higher average speed on his forehand than Alcaraz, but that's for a separate thread.

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[stotty]

http://on-the-t.com/2016/11/26/aolea...%20(Figure%201).

https://professionalshq.com/how-fast-do-professional-tennis-players-hit-the-ball/?utm_content=cmp-true

[jimlosaltos]

http://on-the-t.com/2016/11/26/aolea...%20(Figure%201).

https://professionalshq.com/how-fast...ntent=cmp-true

Ah, Sam Groth's semi-mythical 163 MPH serve. Like the Gryphon, some claim to have seen it in flight.
I so wish Sam had hit that at the US Open.

I have a possible stumper. I think -- think-- I know the answer.

Q: What is the fastest tennis shot ever returned in play?

I must log off but will offer my candidate answer tomorrow.

[stotty]

There is no end of data when it come to the fastest and spinniest. What I want to know is who hits the slowest! I watched Tomic at Wimbledon one year and found him to hit the slowest ball out there. He had power when he needed it but, as an average, he was hitting the slowest ball. Giles Simon was another one who didn't use much pace either.

[jimlosaltos]

There is no end of data when it come to the fastest and spinniest. What I want to know is who hits the slowest! I watched Tomic at Wimbledon one year and found him to hit the slowest ball out there. He had power when he needed it but, as an average, he was hitting the slowest ball. Giles Simon was another one who didn't use much pace either.

Remember when Giles forced Djokovic into hitting, what was it, 100 UFEs and going to 5 sets to win at the Aussie?

Kept making Djokovic against his will go for winners off low, nothing balls in no-mans land.

[jimlosaltos]

Ah, Sam Groth's semi-mythical 163 MPH serve. Like the Gryphon, some claim to have seen it in flight.
I so wish Sam had hit that at the US Open.

I have a possible stumper. I think -- think-- I know the answer.

Q: What is the fastest tennis shot ever returned in play?

I must log off but will offer my candidate answer tomorrow.

Here's my candidate for the fastest shot ever returned.

From memory, the fastest shot I've ever seen or heard of being returned was a serve by Andy Roddick to Jonas Bjorkman in Stockholm.

The serve was a then-fastest ever at perhaps 155 MPH. Bjorkman, a great volleyer and top doubles player, didn't just get it back he did a SABR long before Fed.
Took the serve a foot or two behind the service line, blocked it back as he charged the net.

Ball landed right in front of Andy's toes as he landed. Somehow, Andy reflexed it back, slapped and popped it up right to Bjorkman.
Alas, the Swede, right on top of the net, could have hit the ball almost anywhere any way for a winner but instead, perhaps surprised, clunked into net.

Point Andy. Otherwise it might have been the fastest shot returned for a winner.

[stotty]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d7Iu0YPdJI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0dwozS-8FI

[jimlosaltos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d7Iu0YPdJI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0dwozS-8FI

Those are great stotty ! { Agassi returns, for anyone that didn't click). Thanks for sharing.

It helps to remember just how good Agassi was. I wonder if the current wisdom that Djokovic is the "best returner ever" is yet another example of how powerful "recency bias" is?

[stotty]

Good point...recency bias that is.

My son loves soccer and thinks Lionel Messi is the greatest player ever despite that fact he has never watched Pele much other than the odd short, blurry clips available on YouTube. In my son's eyes, the 'latest best ever player' must be best. No way a player from the 60's or 70's could possibly match the modern day Messi. My son might be right, of course, but Pele was awfully good.

I think Agassi was more aggressive on his returns than Novak. Novak is all about returning balls back into play deep and getting the point off on even terms if possible. Novak may well be the best returner ever but then again Agassi was awfully good too. I wouldn't like to call it frankly. I always though David Ferrer was pretty darn good too but he rarely gets a mention. Sometimes you face has to fit to get in these discussions, and if it doesn't, you're out.

[jimlosaltos]

Good point...recency bias that is.

My son loves soccer and thinks Lionel Messi is the greatest player ever despite that fact he has never watched Pele much other than the odd short, blurry clips available on YouTube. In my son's eyes, the 'latest best ever player' must be best. No way a player from the 60's or 70's could possibly match the modern day Messi. My son might be right, of course, but Pele was awfully good.

I think Agassi was more aggressive on his returns than Novak. Novak is all about returning balls back into play deep and getting the point off on even terms if possible. Novak may well be the best returner ever but then again Agassi was awfully good too. I wouldn't like to call it frankly. I always though David Ferrer was pretty darn good too but he rarely gets a mention. Sometimes you face has to fit to get in these discussions, and if it doesn't, you're out.

My fingers were poised over the keyboard ready to type "And Agassi did that with an old, much smaller racket."

Then I remembered that Agassi played with Prince and Head "Snowshoes" .... what 107 sq in, 112 ? ?

[stroke]

Agassi was a great returner, but to me no one has ever put as much pressure on on the server that Novak does. Wimbledon last year vs Nick, when Nick was serving so well, yet Novak just kept returning so well. I just don't think anyone could have returned Nick like Novak did. As far as Agassi and the racquet, yes, the 107 Oversize racquet worked for Andre, but no other pros seem to use that size anymore. Pro tennis players are ruthless trying to get an edge out there. If an oversize racquet could give them an edge, they would be using them. Novak still uses a 95 inch racquet and heavy(by current pro racquet spec trends).

[jimlosaltos]

Agassi was a great returner, but to me no one has ever put as much pressure on on the server that Novak does. Wimbledon last year vs Nick, when Nick was serving so well, yet Novak just kept returning so well. I just don't think anyone could have returned Nick like Novak did. As far as Agassi and the racquet, yes, the 107 Oversize racquet worked for Andre, but no other pros seem to use that size anymore. Pro tennis players are ruthless trying to get an edge out there. If an oversize racquet could give them an edge, they would be using them. Novak still uses a 95 inch racquet and heavy(by current pro racquet spec trends).

Yup. Relentless pressure accumulates.

Not to be a nitpicker, but I believe Djokovic has used a 100 sq in racket at least since he switched to Head, many years ago.

One can never be certain how the player's actual racket compares to the stock model, but the Head Speed Pro has a dense stringing pattern, 18x20. I tired it back then and found it dead as a board. Fits with his old control game, less so with how aggressive he is now on his forehand.

Sidebar: When Djokovic was having troubles with his serve, and bad announcers such as Gimelstob were blaming Todd Martin, Darren Cahill come to Martin's defense saying, from memory "Djokovic has been having trouble since switching to the head racket. It's a good racket, basically the same one Stefi Graf used, but it has a lighter swing weight than his old racket and he's having trouble feeling his serve."

https://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Head_Speed_Pro/descpageRCHEAD-SPDP.html?from=gshop&gclid=CjwKCAjws7WkBhBFEiwAIi168xHpSfz1JzIOQrx5vInc0rPtrHU1HPK3ZX-vJYJROqUlT-Qh5umFWBoCz4gQAvD_BwE

[stotty]

Agassi was a great returner, but to me no one has ever put as much pressure on on the server that Novak does. Wimbledon last year vs Nick, when Nick was serving so well, yet Novak just kept returning so well. I just don't think anyone could have returned Nick like Novak did. .

...

Yes suffocating...different to Connors or Agassi.