Interactive Forum June 2023: Medvedev Serve Types

[johnyandell]

Interactive Forum June 2023: Medvedev Serve Types

What are the technical differences in the “types” of serves? Take a look at this video from Jim Fawcette. We know from our groundbreaking research that there is no such thing as a purely flat serve, or a purely kick serve, or a slice.

(Click Here for the article which is also our classic lesson.)

But look at Medvedev hitting the three variations. Note the difference when the racket starts to turn to the ball. Look at the toss position. And especially look at the angle of the racket head at contact.

What do you guys think?

[doctorhl]

Wow, the " racket angle at contact for all 3 look similar, but contact just made at different ball positions. If this is actually true, it would seem easier to learn the 3 by concentrating on tossing ball positions rather than any conscious manipulation of racket face angles. Overemphasis on hiding ball toss positions might be detrimental in the learning process( even though copying the Federer model might seem ideal). Toss deception versus a purer spin rate or placement accuracy?? Do you coaches mention any of this or just let it develop naturally?

[jimlosaltos]

John, I like the way you cropped my videos in on the actual "action", as I call it, around the contact point.

Here are some still composites, from the reverse view, that might be of interest.

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[jimlosaltos]

And some more Medvedev serve composites, I made these again from photos I took at BNP Paribas Open, Indian Wells. All (c)jfawcette aka me.

You'll note that Medvedev's motion in the second image here, a wide slice to the ad court, is rather different than that in my video in John's post. While the video shows ISR almost as extreme as that of his flat serve, in this slice he does not rotate nearly as far. I'm guessing he was hitting more kick?

1 of 2
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2 of 3. Three images are combined here. From top to bottom, each of the 3 balls corresponds to a racket & arm position. Medy's arm goes toward the T, much like his motion on a flat serve, but he rotates later and, in this case, less.

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[jimlosaltos]

And, finally, "fans" of Internal Shoulder Rotation should find this a pleasant "palette cleanser" after the lengthy discussions here of Sabalenka's issues with an otherwise, very effective serve.

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[jimlosaltos]

Some random thoughts on Medvedev's service that might be of interest. ATP ranks his serve 16th overall, 10th in service games won.

What I see as his strengths are first, that he can hit every serve. But beyond that, his accuracy. This graphic from ATP site shows where Medvedev's and Sinner's serves landed in a match Medvedev won. Medy's serves are far closer to the sideline and/ or the corners than Sinner's. Otherwise, every one of their numbers seemed identical -- max/ave speed, percent in, etc.

A second strength, to me, is an extension of his overall game. Medvedev seems so confident in his skills that he can hit any shot on any point. Facing break point, the opponent doesn't know if they'll see slice, flat, pace, spin or -- the only serve and volley point Medvedev played all match.

Another part of that confidence is that he can decide to change serve and just casually hit a different motion. I recall a match years back where Medvedev's serve was off. So, he walked over to the extreme right border, tossed the ball way to his right and started hitting ridiculous slice serves. Despite telegraphing what he was doing, the slice was so severe the returner couldn't attack, not from the flower box halfway up the sidelines. Then when the returner moved way over, Medvedev just smoothly hit it flat right in the T from that same location & toss.

Finally, the simplicity of Medvedev's serve is quite a contrast to his flappy forehands, where he seems to invent another stroke on every swing, or his shovel backhands.

Caption: ATP image. Look at the tight clusters on the Russian's serve. Medvedev's first serve placement to the ad court is shown on the left, Sinner's first serve placement to the deuce on the right. This is from a match Medy won. Again, if you look at the stat box, their serves were almost identical, but Medy won more points. The dots might tell the story.

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[jeffreycounts]

And, finally, "fans" of Internal Shoulder Rotation should find this a pleasant "palette cleanser" after the lengthy discussions here of Sabalenka's issues with an otherwise, very effective serve.

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A straight line from the shoulder to the tip of the racket with a full 180 degree rotation from the shoulder. Great stills!

[stotty]

I think it's one the sloppiest great serves I've seen. It doesn't always repeat (down to an erratic ball toss mostly) yet he bombs it down successfully time and time again.

[jimlosaltos]

A straight line from the shoulder to the tip of the racket with a full 180 degree rotation from the shoulder. Great stills!

Thanks, Jeffrey. Appreciate it.

[stroke]

I think it's one the sloppiest great serves I've seen. It doesn't always repeat (down to an erratic ball toss mostly) yet he bombs it down successfully time and time again.

I agree not pretty. I doubt JY will be doing a Sampras/Roddick/Fed series on his serve ha.

[johnyandell]

Ha indeed. He seems to be the exception that proves the rule...check the Tour Portrait...

[johnyandell]

Doc,
Sure you can learn the different variations with different toss positions. Apparently doesn't hurt Medvedev. Most coaches would say ideally hit them all off the same toss. One of Sampras's coach did a drill where Pete would toss the ball and then the coach would call out which serve. Had to hit them all off the same toss...

[jimlosaltos]

A straight line from the shoulder to the tip of the racket with a full 180 degree rotation from the shoulder. Great stills!

Your description reminded me of Fed's flat, wide serve.
The two certainly take a much different route yet get to the same point.

Caption: My pic of Federer from Laver Cup, 2017

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[stroke]

Your description reminded me of Fed's flat, wide serve.
The two certainly take a much different route to get to the same point.

Caption: My pic of Federer from Laver Cup, 2017

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Aestestically, I would say they are polar opposites.

[jimlosaltos]

Aestestically, I would say they are polar opposites.

Hah! No argument there! Gooney bird landing vs ballerina.

But, as I said, they take very different routes yet end up at the same destination, Jeffrey's "straight line from shoulder to tip of racket, 180 degree rotation".