Interactive Forum April 2023: Aryna Sabalenka Serve

[johnyandell]

Skip,
To be honest I don't read every word of every post--especially the long ones. I'll try to keep a closer eye on this thread.
John

[jimlosaltos]

less make haughty criticisms in an insulting manner

I second that. TPN is a great place to discuss tennis. I learn a lot here & enjoy the insights that are shared, many by people with far more tennis knowledge than I -- even when I don't necessarily agree.

Personal attacks aren't called for and don't add to our discussions.

Sadly, there are already far too many places online to engage in those.

[johnyandell]

Well said Jim.

[tenniscoach1]

Don Budge: While you and others have made us think deeper into technique diagnosis(assessmeni), can you chime in on the second part of performance analysis and perhaps the most difficult........player compliance. I don't recall that this part has been discussed in length in the forum. Of course a distinction must be made between elite players who rely mostly on self analysis and others willing to rely on second party analysis. Pro players vary on the roles they want their coach to engage in: technique analysis, match strategy, psychological support, conditioning, etc.

An obvious starting framework for technique analysis in my opinion: "The more elite the player, the higher the stakes."

Player protocol for success: 1.The need for change must first be recognized. 2.Player must agree on the "fix". 3.Commitment to actually practice the "fix". 4.Acceptance of of possible initial decline in performance as new motor memory is introduced into a game situation.

True! Well said.

[tenniscoach1]

If you want to quote me don_budge, much less make haughty criticisms in an insulting manner, at least quote me accurately. Where did I "proclaim" (sheesh, you'd think I'd stated my observation in the manner of the Sermon On The Mount, which I did not) that Sabalenka's serve was "good to go" but for the elbow? As I see it her elbow's position is the crux of the problem, which is what I wrote while at the same time not denying that her motion was less than friction free, much less perfect.

"While tennisskp1515 is of the opinion that less than fluid is just ok..." I wrote nothing of the sort. All I said is that there are effective serves on the tours that are less than fluid. Do you disagree? You're certainly entitled to do so, but a constructive back-and-forth would entail accurate descriptions of what another writes and one's counterpoint, without ad hominem attacks. Your ripostes lack all of that.

You know nothing about me, so a dismissive crack about my having a "modern" coaching perspective is based on, what exactly? If I changed my handle to bill_tilden would I get more respect?

Perhaps others find arrogance proof of great knowledge. I do not. I am sorry to see that tennisplayer.net supports this kind of interaction by not flagging it.

I learned a long time ago as a coach to just shut up when an old school veteran coach like Don Budge speaks. He’s giving you constructive feedback in HIS OWN way and it's your job to focus in on what he is saying and not act up and take it so personal. Understand he doesn’t need to agree with you - understand an older coach operate differently - if you take things personally it shows you lack game - be nice and back back up what you say with valid arguments, etc. You’re not going to earn respect acting this way as a coach - Steve and I used to go at it … but, he’s 25 years older than me and respect ain’t something he hands out to newbies here. When your dealing with guys like him you sit back and learn. Generally never a good idea to talk back to the elders anyways - they can say as they please cause they have earned that right, they speak of thanks to experience and wisdom and they've been raised differently. Or - you can just block out the guy - but, that's not smart as we all know the level of the man's coaching and track record and years of writing on this board.

[tenniscoach1]

I second that. TPN is a great place to discuss tennis. I learn a lot here & enjoy the insights that are shared, many by people with far more tennis knowledge than I -- even when I don't necessarily agree.

Personal attacks aren't called for and don't add to our discussions.

Sadly, there are already far too many places online to engage in those.

Light weight stuff.

[tenniscoach1]

Perhaps we get this back on track the discussion and stop talking about how we feel … ? …

[jthb1021]

If you want to quote me don_budge, much less make haughty criticisms in an insulting manner, at least quote me accurately. Where did I "proclaim" (sheesh, you'd think I'd stated my observation in the manner of the Sermon On The Mount, which I did not) that Sabalenka's serve was "good to go" but for the elbow? As I see it her elbow's position is the crux of the problem, which is what I wrote while at the same time not denying that her motion was less than friction free, much less perfect.

"While tennisskp1515 is of the opinion that less than fluid is just ok..." I wrote nothing of the sort. All I said is that there are effective serves on the tours that are less than fluid. Do you disagree? You're certainly entitled to do so, but a constructive back-and-forth would entail accurate descriptions of what another writes and one's counterpoint, without ad hominem attacks. Your ripostes lack all of that.

You know nothing about me, so a dismissive crack about my having a "modern" coaching perspective is based on, what exactly? If I changed my handle to bill_tilden would I get more respect?

Perhaps others find arrogance proof of great knowledge. I do not. I am sorry to see that tennisplayer.net supports this kind of interaction by not flagging it.

Tennisskp1515 about 2 years ago John Yandell did a series on the slice backhand. The classic slice then the modern slice which led me to video my slice backhand and share my thoughts of how I naturally seemed to have evolved into a modern slice backhand because I sure wasn’t taught that way. Budge responded to my comment asking what grip I used hahahahaha!! In my mind I’m thinking a F’n continental! He then asked something else that made me feel like I needed to defend myself because I even though I am a good player and coach in my little pond here in Louisiana I have so much respect for the tennis minds on this site and have learned so much more than I have shared. Budge asked me to send a video of my slice then it evolved into videoing my serve. Suddenly we began a project of working on my serve together and a very special friendship truly blossomed! He is crazy picky and always sees room for a little improvement as he and I were trying to find what I called my “divine serve.” The serve journey we went on was amazing and unfortunately I can’t seem to post what we settled on which is just short of divine for me. But there was more to it than that Budge helped me see more room for improvement in everything where so often we think things are good enough. TPN is better with Budge contributing and his grand slam tournament messages are so good! My relationship with him started by feeling disrespected in a way but evolved into one of the most special friendships I’ve had in my adult life. He’s tough and sees the world differently than I do and I needed that!
This is a great site and thank you for posting on here! Sabalenkas serve is a topic that should get a lot of discussion. There is, as Steve would probably start with her, a lot of potential there. Who can get her to see it and tap into it? Who knows but they don’t seem to be in her entourage at the moment.

[tennisskip1515]

tenniscoach1 Being old and/or knowledgeable does not give one license to be rude. An old school coach has to be north of 70 to be older than me. I first taught tennis when I was 16, am ex USPTA, have seen plenty of live pro tennis on 3 continents, and can add other meaningful details to my tennis cv. None of that automatically makes my tennis comments accurate, but it is to my point that it is a low act to slag me personally, or anyone else, based on assumptions about who they are, what they've done and what they know. Everyone here, and online in general, is entitled to a modicum of respect.

I've been online for 30+ years. I'm a big kid, can take criticism, and have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. I don’t expect DB or anyone else to accord my opinions the respect due holy edicts. Being gratuitously insulting is not part and parcel of being a good, knowledgeable or old coach, however.

I replied as to why I think my Sabalenka's serve comment was legit and why DB's insults were unnecessary, and left it at that. With this post I will leave it alone, but I'd appreciate not being lectured about how the cranky uncle at Thanksgiving dinner should be humored because, what, he's old? Civility requires effort and some humility, and the lack of it is not excused by either reaching a certain age or expertise.

jthb1021 Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I’m glad DB’s help improved your game.

Now back to tennis…

[jthb1021]

Back to tennis it is! I bet there is a lot of protection going on when it comes to this serve and protecting the confidence of the Australian Open champion. There are deamons when it comes to this serve and her confidence Im sure. I am imagining some fear in the coaches box of dismantling this serve, breaking it down, and it blowing up in their faces with this top 5 player. When you watch the video Christope Delaveau posted about how Rafa changed his serve to win the us open Uncle Tony looks beyond nervous and uncomfortable with the project and takes a ridiculous amount of convincing to just hit the basic serve checkpoints. If you haven’t seen the video it is really well done and very basic. How did Andy Roddick not address his backhand in a new era where you can’t be number 1 with a serve and a forehand anymore? There are lots of examples of players with deamons in some part of their game at the highest levels and it seems between them and the coaches they choose the band aid approach most of the time. The only logical explanation is fear in my opinion from either the coaches or the player(s) protecting what they have in a high stakes world of professional tennis.

[tenniscoach1]

tenniscoach1 Being old and/or knowledgeable does not give one license to be rude. An old school coach has to be north of 70 to be older than me. I first taught tennis when I was 16, am ex USPTA, have seen plenty of live pro tennis on 3 continents, and can add other meaningful details to my tennis cv. None of that automatically makes my tennis comments accurate, but it is to my point that it is a low act to slag me personally, or anyone else, based on assumptions about who they are, what they've done and what they know. Everyone here, and online in general, is entitled to a modicum of respect.

I've been online for 30+ years. I'm a big kid, can take criticism, and have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. I don’t expect DB or anyone else to accord my opinions the respect due holy edicts. Being gratuitously insulting is not part and parcel of being a good, knowledgeable or old coach, however.

I replied as to why I think my Sabalenka's serve comment was legit and why DB's insults were unnecessary, and left it at that. With this post I will leave it alone, but I'd appreciate not being lectured about how the cranky uncle at Thanksgiving dinner should be humored because, what, he's old? Civility requires effort and some humility, and the lack of it is not excused by either reaching a certain age or expertise.

jthb1021 Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I’m glad DB’s help improved your game.

Now back to tennis…

Nice diatribe. You’re a fantastic writer. Anyways, Don Budge hasn’t been off the mark in the past two decades. He’ll figure you out pretty quick if he hasn’t already. I am getting the spider sense intuition you are trying to assert control and influence over others … I don’t care for your gaslighting tactics. History has shown us in two decades plus those who disagreed with Don Budge have tended to be the ones with issues and problems. That’s the last I have to say in this matter. We should all be thankful that Steve even posts on this board. Go through thousands of posts and read the wisdom.

[stotty]

Back to tennis it is! I bet there is a lot of protection going on when it comes to this serve and protecting the confidence of the Australian Open champion. There are deamons when it comes to this serve and her confidence Im sure. I am imagining some fear in the coaches box of dismantling this serve, breaking it down, and it blowing up in their faces with this top 5 player. When you watch the video Christope Delaveau posted about how Rafa changed his serve to win the us open Uncle Tony looks beyond nervous and uncomfortable with the project and takes a ridiculous amount of convincing to just hit the basic serve checkpoints. If you haven’t seen the video it is really well done and very basic. How did Andy Roddick not address his backhand in a new era where you can’t be number 1 with a serve and a forehand anymore? There are lots of examples of players with deamons in some part of their game at the highest levels and it seems between them and the coaches they choose the band aid approach most of the time. The only logical explanation is fear in my opinion from either the coaches or the player(s) protecting what they have in a high stakes world of professional tennis.

One thing you almost never see is a dismantling and rebuilding of a stroke at tour level. I am struggling to think of a single case. What you mostly see are coaches tweaking things or merely trying to beef up what is already there. It may not be possible to completely dismantle a serve and start again with a serve that has already had thousands of hours plumbed into to it. Muscle memory is probably the most powerful override button there is. With this in mind, it's probably best to get things right right at the start.

[stroke]

One thing you almost never see is a dismantling and rebuilding of a stroke at tour level. I am struggling to think of a single case. What you mostly see are coaches tweaking things or merely trying to beef up what is already there. It may not be possible to completely dismantle a serve and start again with a serve that has already had thousands of hours plumbed into to it. Muscle memory is probably the most powerful override button there is. With this in mind, it's probably best to get things right right at the start.

So true, as we have mentioned somewhere on some thread on this site, about the only true overhauls we have seen are the Henin and Mannarino forehands, for different reasons. Justine chose to overhaul hers, with great success. It is still to this day one of the best, if not the best in women's tennis ever. Mannarino had to change his to continue to play ATP tennis, as he was having severe wrist pain. I know of no player ever that has overhauled a serve as a professional. Novak certainly had his issues, he had a decent serve originally on Tour, and lost his way with it, and found his way again. I certainly would not call it an overhaul, not even close.

[jimlosaltos]

So true, as we have mentioned somewhere on some thread on this site, about the only true overhauls we have seen are the Henin and Mannarino forehands, for different reasons. Justine chose to overhaul hers, with great success. It is still to this day one of the best, if not the best in women's tennis ever. Mannarino had to change his to continue to play ATP tennis, as he was having severe wrist pain. I know of no player ever that has overhauled a serve as a professional. Novak certainly had his issues, he had a decent serve originally on Tour, and lost his way with it, and found his way again. I certainly would not call it an overhaul, not even close.

good examples (and I applaud both of your efforts to get this thread back on topic. thank you!).

We may be witnessing one in progress, with early results not encouraging but lots of time left, in Coco Gauff.

As Brad Gilbert said, roughly "Holy cow. Opponents are hitting absolutely everything to Coco's forehand. It's like a shift in baseball."

When frequent TPN contributor Kyle LaCroix shared that on Twitter, I mentioned that I had new-found appreciate for how difficult his job was -- and how persistent muscle memory and habits are.

A NYT Magazine profile of Coco a few months back mainly focused on family, promise, personality but had one moment of note inserted. Coco was on court in the background while the writer was interviewing her team, working on her forehead. Urged on she repeated "I know. I know."

Remarkable talent, stuck for now on a plateau. Hope she climbs off.

[don_budge]

If you want to quote me don_budge, much less make haughty criticisms in an insulting manner, at least quote me accurately. Where did I "proclaim" (sheesh, you'd think I'd stated my observation in the manner of the Sermon On The Mount, which I did not) that Sabalenka's serve was "good to go" but for the elbow? As I see it her elbow's position is the crux of the problem, which is what I wrote while at the same time not denying that her motion was less than friction free, much less perfect.

"While tennisskp1515 is of the opinion that less than fluid is just ok..." I wrote nothing of the sort. All I said is that there are effective serves on the tours that are less than fluid. Do you disagree? You're certainly entitled to do so, but a constructive back-and-forth would entail accurate descriptions of what another writes and one's counterpoint, without ad hominem attacks. Your ripostes lack all of that.

You know nothing about me, so a dismissive crack about my having a "modern" coaching perspective is based on, what exactly? If I changed my handle to bill_tilden would I get more respect?

Perhaps others find arrogance proof of great knowledge. I do not. I am sorry to see that tennisplayer.net supports this kind of interaction by not flagging it.

tenniscoach1 Being old and/or knowledgeable does not give one license to be rude. An old school coach has to be north of 70 to be older than me. I first taught tennis when I was 16, am ex USPTA, have seen plenty of live pro tennis on 3 continents, and can add other meaningful details to my tennis cv. None of that automatically makes my tennis comments accurate, but it is to my point that it is a low act to slag me personally, or anyone else, based on assumptions about who they are, what they've done and what they know. Everyone here, and online in general, is entitled to a modicum of respect.

I've been online for 30+ years. I'm a big kid, can take criticism, and have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. I don’t expect DB or anyone else to accord my opinions the respect due holy edicts. Being gratuitously insulting is not part and parcel of being a good, knowledgeable or old coach, however.

I replied as to why I think my Sabalenka's serve comment was legit and why DB's insults were unnecessary, and left it at that. With this post I will leave it alone, but I'd appreciate not being lectured about how the cranky uncle at Thanksgiving dinner should be humored because, what, he's old? Civility requires effort and some humility, and the lack of it is not excused by either reaching a certain age or expertise.

jthb1021 Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I’m glad DB’s help improved your game.

Now back to tennis…

The indignation...