Interactive Forum April 2023: Aryna Sabalenka Serve

[jeffreycounts]

Henins forehand probably the most successful overhaul ever at that level. Mannarino forehand probably second. Cilic did tweak his serve, rather than overhaul it to me. Kind of similar to Ruud, simply lowering the toss to quicken up the motion.

Worst overhaul ever: Ernests Gulbis forehand.

[stroke]

Worst overhaul ever: Ernests Gulbis forehand.

As I remember, after he got to where he was with that traffic director forehand, he tried to overhaul it again late in his career but it did not take at all.

[tenniscoach1]

True! Also helps to be backed by the billionaire co-founder of Sony, Akio Morita.

There is no doubt that billionaires are extremely intelligent individuals who have amassed a tremendous amount of wealth through their own hard work, intelligence, and strategic decision-making. This is evident in the success of individuals such as Akio Morita, the founder of Sony, and his decision to invest in Kei Nishikori, an unproven asset at one point with a pair of work-boots and not much else in life. It is important to note that Nishikori did not receive any handouts or free gifts from Morita. Instead, he had to prove himself as a qualified and skilled athlete, working tirelessly to earn every penny that he received. In fact, with someone as savvy as Morita, there is no room for mediocrity or laziness or lack of results. Only those who are willing to put in the effort and demonstrate their worth can expect to receive any kind of support or recognition from a man like that. He ain't no charity. Therefore, it is safe to say that Nishikori's success was a result of his own hard work, talent, and dedication, and not simply a gift from a generous billionaire. When dealing with individuals like Morita, one must always be prepared to earn their success the hard way, as there are no shortcuts or easy paths to success.

[jimlosaltos]

Worst overhaul ever: Ernests Gulbis forehand.

I still wonder, what wasG?nter Bresnik thinking?

[don_budge]

For anyone that hasn't been following the saga of Sabalenka's travails at the service line, here's a few items to catch up on:

2) Rick Macci said, "There is no biomechanical problem with her serve. Her mechanics are fine, the problem is 100% mental."

3) Gigi Fernandez on Tennis Channel last week: "The problem is her toss. Her contact point moves around too much."

4) Gavin MacMillan, the biomechanics trainer that claims credit for fixing the Belarusian's serve, whose YouTube interview was posted here by seano. As I understand his lengthy discussion, he claims her off hand moves to the wrong side of her body and that her palm needed to face the side wall. He also softly tosses in that when it isn't working she should move the toss back and hit kick.

Gee...do you think that the coaching might be dumbed down just a little? Who was it that said the "coaching was highjacked" back in the 1980's? "Her machanics are just fine." "The problem is her toss." It isn't any wonder that a player of Aryna's talent should end up with a serve motion where she is so contorted you have to be concerned as to how her neck appears in the middle of it. Player's surround themselves with dumb coaches who in turn shelter their little proteges from any meaningful input for fear of their own fragile egos getting hurt. It isn't any fun getting outcoached.

[tenniscoach1]

Gee...do you think that the coaching might be dumbed down just a little? Who was it that said the "coaching was hijacked" back in the 1980's? "Her mechanics are just fine." "The problem is her toss." It isn't any wonder that a player of Aryna's talent should end up with a serve motion where she is so contorted you have to be concerned as to how her neck appears in the middle of it. Player's surround themselves with dumb coaches who in turn shelter their little proteges from any meaningful input for fear of their own fragile egos getting hurt. It isn't any fun getting out-coached.

[jimlosaltos]

Worst overhaul ever: Ernests Gulbis forehand.

My recollection is that whatever Gulbis's forehand deficiencies were early on, it was good enough to beat Fed and push Nadal to match point in back-to-back clay matches.

THEN the start of the decline might have been when Gulbis went to a Florida trainer that bulked him up so much he lost mobility and quickness. Same trainer (can't recall name) also worked with Jelena Jankovic, who had a very good forehand. Both lost a year of careers to getting muscle bound.

Djokovic's early coach Jelena Genčić was on to something when she avoided weight training and emphasized flexibility instead.

[stotty]

My recollection is that whatever Gulbis's forehand deficiencies were early on, it was good enough to beat Fed and push Nadal to match point in back-to-back clay matches.

Djokovic's early coach Jelena Genčić was on to something when she avoided weight training and emphasized flexibility instead.

You certainly like to slip in the odd counterargument that's for sure....and why not when they will always be the odd player around who defies logic. And yes Gulbis did have some good results with that bizarre forehand so it's not to so easy to ruin a quality player as one might think - although Bresnik did have a jolly good go.

Didn't know that about Gencic. I know in the brief time Agassi spent with Novak he thought he was too thin in the upper body, but Novak's trainers were intent on strengthening Novak's legs and taking weight off the upper body in the interest of speed and greater longevity. I know this though a physio who knows one of the trainers on Novak's team. Not sure how reliable this insight is but I am sure there is an element of truth in it.

[jeffreycounts]

My recollection is that whatever Gulbis's forehand deficiencies were early on, it was good enough to beat Fed and push Nadal to match point in back-to-back clay matches.

THEN the start of the decline might have been when Gulbis went to a Florida trainer that bulked him up so much he lost mobility and quickness. Same trainer (can't recall name) also worked with Jelena Jankovic, who had a very good forehand. Both lost a year of careers to getting muscle bound.

Djokovic's early coach Jelena Genčić was on to something when she avoided weight training and emphasized flexibility instead.

Gulbis was a top ten player. Beat Roger in the French Open and then beat Berdych to reach the semi finals. He had a complete, explosive game with no weaknesses s d a world class forehand. To take a young guy like that and change anything is absurd. To turn his forehand take back into a cartoonish anomaly is unconscionable. If this was a doctors it would be considered malpractice. Now Gulbis is 34, toiling away on the challenger tour, making headlines only for being a jerk. Point being you don’t mess with a great stroke. And you really don’t change it to something that looks ridiculous and has no precedent in terms of technique. That coach was beyond incompetent. Of course Gulbis is a world class jerk so that makes it easier to stomach.

And to Jim’s point, bulking up hurt Tiger Woods big time. Golf, like tennis, is all about flexibility. That’s where timing and explosiveness come from. Look at Kyrgios or Federe, both built like twigs. So looks like Gulbis got bad advice there as well. https://www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/...w1fzw3n9sjhbac

[jimlosaltos]

You certainly like to slip in the odd counterargument that's for sure....and why not when they will always be the odd player around who defies logic. And yes Gulbis did have some good results with that bizarre forehand so it's not to so easy to ruin a quality player as one might think - although Bresnik did have a jolly good go.

Didn't know that about Gencic. I know in the brief time Agassi spent with Novak he thought he was too thin in the upper body, but Novak's trainers were intent on strengthening Novak's legs and taking weight off the upper body in the interest of speed and greater longevity. I know this though a physio who knows one of the trainers on Novak's team. Not sure how reliable this insight is but I am sure there is an element of truth in it.

Hey, I didn't bring up Gulbis <g> ! But that sparked synapses with random thoughts ...

Re: Your comment on Djokovic. Others have noted that he looks more bulked up this year. Can't say I've noticed, but ... it's out there.

[jimlosaltos]

Gulbis was a top ten player. Beat Roger in the French Open and then beat Berdych to reach the semi finals. He had a complete, explosive game with no weaknesses s d a world class forehand. To take a young guy like that and change anything is absurd. To turn his forehand take back into a cartoonish anomaly is unconscionable. If this was a doctors it would be considered malpractice. Now Gulbis is 34, toiling away on the challenger tour, making headlines only for being a jerk. Point being you don’t mess with a great stroke. And you really don’t change it to something that looks ridiculous and has no precedent in terms of technique. That coach was beyond incompetent. Of course Gulbis is a world class jerk so that makes it easier to stomach.

Agreed. Recency bias being what it is, I think some forgot how good young Gulbis was before he became "Crazy Ernie".

I recall Gulbis beating Ivo Karlovic in finals at Delray Beach by making it look routine to return Dr. Ivo's FIRST serve from inside the baseline.

It was like Gulbis had more 'time' than anyone else.

First time I saw him was in San Jose perhaps semi vs Andy Roddick, on break point, took an over 140 MPH serve from Andy and seemingly had so much time he overhit. Roddick looked at Gulbis as if he had seen an alien.

Then ... the forehand. A good example perhaps of the risks inherent in changing a Top 10 player's game.

Or, perhaps he was always destined to lose focus and meltdown.

[jimlosaltos]

Another player that may have damaged her game by bulking up is Paula Badosa.

Used to look like a fashion model but with biceps when she was number 2 in the world, beating Iga and Arya. Good mover, good all around game and serve.

Last year she got very buff -- and her game went downhill. Now outside the top 30.

Correlation does not prove causation, but they tend to happen at the same time (an old stats joke).

[stroke]

I remember when Agassi coached Novak briefly, and he felt Novak needed to gain some weight, more mass. Novak disagreed, and thier coaching arrangement went away shortly thereafter.

[don_budge]

Hugh Laurie's Dr. House would do a "Differential Diagnosis" on Saby's serve <g>

Is it nerves, technique, or too aggressive second serving?

When confronted with symptoms all over the map, House would tell his team to fake looking for Lupus "It has so many symptoms, we can test for everything."

No team is required for this diagnosis. House only has a team so he can hear himself talk. I am watching non stop reruns of House here in Sweden and we are in season four...he has fired his original team of Foreman, Chase and Cameron. He pauses after it is all said and done, sharing a drink with a Cuban refugee who sailed a boat from Havanna to America to see House about his dying wife. They smoke a Cuban cigar together celebrating saving the wife...snatching her from the jaws of death. House goes home and gets a package in the mail. A new guitar. He lights up the cigar again and begins to strum. He has just lost his team...but won another contest between life and death. He smiles to himself. He knows he is going to be just fine.

There are no symptoms all over the map. This woman's serve is not mystery. It is right there in front of everyone and God to see. Nobody seems to know what the hell to make of it. This...that or the other thing. It is a relatively simple fix. As simple as "take two and see me in the morning". The biggest and most important number is always regarding the potential. In this case the number is huge. In others it might be quite small...yet worth investigating. Tennis is a game of inches...and less.

[don_budge]

General overall impression of this thread. It had great potential and was quite interesting but now has devolved into a discussion of some rather innocuous tidbits of fun facts of players past. Serve motions are a subject that is very misunderstood and those that truly understand "The Art in the Zen of Serving" are few and far between. Currently Jannik Sinner would be the posterboy for changing horses in midstream. He went from pinpoint to platform which is the correct decision eight days a week but his development has seemingly stalled a bit. It will be interesting to see where the brain trust behind this young and developing talent where guide him. Who and why was behind the change decision? Was Jannik on board immediately?

It isn't about biomechanics. It isn't about statistics. It is about motion. Fluid and perfect motion. The weight of the body and the arms must be synched to the ball and the racquet head. It is racquet head speed that produces spin and speed. It is the path of the racquet head that dictates placement. What are the problems in a motion? What are the fixes? It isn't rocket science, but like the golf swing remains to be quite a mystery.