Interactive Forum April 2023: Aryna Sabalenka Serve

[don_budge]

Wonder what Don Budge has to say …

A picture is worth a million words...

[don_budge]

tenniscoach1 is the closest to the solution...so far. Go ask don_budge.

[don_budge]

Let's compare her to Fed.

She seems to be snapping her wrist...

Take a look at the sequence again jeffreycounts...she appears to be snapping her neck. Look at the position of her head compared to Roger's. Why? You guys are tap dancing around a whole host of issues. Nobody is even close yet. Macci is lost. Gavin is lost. stotty cannot decide whether to defer to the "bio-mechanic" experts or not.

The service motion is an upside down golf swing. Instead of teeing it down...you tee it up. Look at the motions of the golfers at the Masters this weekend if they don't get flooded out of existence by torrential rains in August.

This motion is an accident waiting to happen from the get-go. From her setup position. From there it only becomes a sequence of compensatory moves and being a trained athlete she pulls it off...more or less. It backfires on her. Sometimes when she needs it most. So basically it is unreliable for one fundamental reason. It is not Fundamentally Correct (FC). It is not designed to maintain a 3-sigma range of dispersion. It is easily veering out of control. Nerves will contribute to out-of-control conditions. Nerves have a nasty little habit of rearing their ugly little heads when the pressure is mounting. Sometimes the thing will just not feel right...just because it isn't right. The player knows it. It becomes mental as well. But the root cause is poor design.

The errant toss is only a symptom. Not the culprit. But just look at the position of her head...just imagine what kind of contortion she has to make on her way to impact. Keep fishing. You are all chasing your tails.

To all of your collective credit...you do see that this motion is not "fluid". The eye doesn't lie. But it is only that the brain does not know what to make of it. But to me it is a very simple thing. But then I always reduce things to the LCD (Lowest Common Denominator). This motion is designed for failure and will have great difficulty maintaining any semblance of consistency. On the other hand there is the perfect motion. Much like the golfers this weekend at the Masters in Augusta. Perfect setup. Perfect backswing. Perfect tempo in the transition from backswing to forwards swing.

[stroke]

Here's what I meant by snapping her wrist forward with zero long-axis rotation. My photo from San Jose 2019

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And here is Sir Andy, source unknown. His basic serve motion is slice. Although Andy may be similarly "kick serve adverse', he doesn't have the issues with doubles that I recall.

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No doubt those finishes look not good at all. Quite the contrast to a top tier Sampras type finish.

[tenniscoach1]

Take a look at the sequence again jeffreycounts...she appears to be snapping her neck. Look at the position of her head compared to Roger's. Why? You guys are tap dancing around a whole host of issues. Nobody is even close yet. Macci is lost. Gavin is lost. stotty cannot decide whether to defer to the "bio-mechanic" experts or not.

The service motion is an upside down golf swing. Instead of teeing it down...you tee it up. Look at the motions of the golfers at the Masters this weekend if they don't get flooded out of existence by torrential rains in August.

This motion is an accident waiting to happen from the get-go. From her setup position. From there it only becomes a sequence of compensatory moves and being a trained athlete she pulls it off...more or less. It backfires on her. Sometimes when she needs it most. So basically it is unreliable for one fundamental reason. It is not Fundamentally Correct (FC). It is not designed to maintain a 3-sigma range of dispersion. It is easily veering out of control. Nerves will contribute to out-of-control conditions. Nerves have a nasty little habit of rearing their ugly little heads when the pressure is mounting. Sometimes the thing will just not feel right...just because it isn't right. The player knows it. It becomes mental as well. But the root cause is poor design.

The errant toss is only a symptom. Not the culprit. But just look at the position of her head...just imagine what kind of contortion she has to make on her way to impact. Keep fishing. You are all chasing your tails.

To all of your collective credit...you do see that this motion is not "fluid". The eye doesn't lie. But it is only that the brain does not know what to make of it. But to me it is a very simple thing. But then I always reduce things to the LCD (Lowest Common Denominator). This motion is designed for failure and will have great difficulty maintaining any semblance of consistency. On the other hand there is the perfect motion. Much like the golfers this weekend at the Masters in Augusta. Perfect setup. Perfect back-swing. Perfect tempo in the transition from back-swing to forwards swing.

Very interesting:

Sometimes the thing will just not feel right...just because it isn't right. The player knows it.

[tenniscoach1]

It will be interesting to see how her serve holds up over the next 12 months. Let's stay tuned and monitor the stats.

[doctorhl]

Take a look at the sequence again jeffreycounts...she appears to be snapping her neck. Look at the position of her head compared to Roger's. Why? You guys are tap dancing around a whole host of issues. Nobody is even close yet. Macci is lost. Gavin is lost. stotty cannot decide whether to defer to the "bio-mechanic" experts or not.

The service motion is an upside down golf swing. Instead of teeing it down...you tee it up. Look at the motions of the golfers at the Masters this weekend if they don't get flooded out of existence by torrential rains in August.

This motion is an accident waiting to happen from the get-go. From her setup position. From there it only becomes a sequence of compensatory moves and being a trained athlete she pulls it off...more or less. It backfires on her. Sometimes when she needs it most. So basically it is unreliable for one fundamental reason. It is not Fundamentally Correct (FC). It is not designed to maintain a 3-sigma range of dispersion. It is easily veering out of control. Nerves will contribute to out-of-control conditions. Nerves have a nasty little habit of rearing their ugly little heads when the pressure is mounting. Sometimes the thing will just not feel right...just because it isn't right. The player knows it. It becomes mental as well. But the root cause is poor design.

The errant toss is only a symptom. Not the culprit. But just look at the position of her head...just imagine what kind of contortion she has to make on her way to impact. Keep fishing. You are all chasing your tails.

To all of your collective credit...you do see that this motion is not "fluid". The eye doesn't lie. But it is only that the brain does not know what to make of it. But to me it is a very simple thing. But then I always reduce things to the LCD (Lowest Common Denominator). This motion is designed for failure and will have great difficulty maintaining any semblance of consistency. On the other hand there is the perfect motion. Much like the golfers this weekend at the Masters in Augusta. Perfect setup. Perfect backswing. Perfect tempo in the transition from backswing to forwards swing.

DB: Fluidity in transition from backward swing to forward swing in tennis serve is key( as it is in baseball throw, golf swing, etc.) My childhood sport motions were " muscle" based, not " fluid" base and is taking years to shed, even today in tennis or in attempting new sports. Do you( or others),feel that there is a strong connection between a desire to control motion and performance anxiety? If so, there is probably plenty to discuss about how to address this early in a kid's tennus development in another thread or perhaps an article by an expert.

[don_budge]

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jeffreycounts...this side by side is so amazing. I sure wish I had your skills. Any chance of a side view...side by side?

[don_budge]

DB: Fluidity in transition from backward swing to forward swing in tennis serve is key( as it is in baseball throw, golf swing, etc.) My childhood sport motions were " muscle" based, not " fluid" base and is taking years to shed, even today in tennis or in attempting new sports. Do you( or others),feel that there is a strong connection between a desire to control motion and performance anxiety? If so, there is probably plenty to discuss about how to address this early in a kid's tennus development in another thread or perhaps an article by an expert.

I feel that there is an almost infallible connection between a proper setup and backswing and the "transition". You are pointing out one of the absolute theorems in sports in that if you are not in proper position to go forwards you are going to be subject to a feeling that something is not right and you are going to end up trying to make something happen that should be happening quite naturally.

jeffreycounts has posted these side by sides comparisons between the ultra balanced Roger Federer and our struggling serve motion patient. Roger's balance is always personified by his ability to hold his head still. We see it through his entire repetoire. But look at poor Aryana's head position...something is dreadfully wrong here. To her infinite credit she somehow hangs in there and makes this potentially disastrous motion work for her. Although her struggles must take its toll on her mentally. Talk about performance anxiety.

Best to create the concept of perfect motions to kids early on and never let up on the concept of "continuous improvement". Muscled motions have a tendency to pit the athlete against themselves sometimes and it isn't always pretty. Athletes being athletes often can compensate for poor motions but it can become the internal struggle you are referring to. Plus it limits their potential.

[tenniscoach1]

So here is a very logical question for Don Budge ... what do we ALL need to do better as coaches?

[morespin]

I have a hypothesis.

A lot of players have a tendency to toss too far to the right (for a righty) and that causes a serve that is flat or a slice. A player can't hit a topspin/kick/twist serve when their body is too open (facing the net). So, the first thing I would do is try to get that player to toss more toward 12:00 or maybe 11:30. I know, obvious.

Look where the toes of her left foot are pointing. They are pointing toward the net post. That causes/allows her hips to rotate which causes her upper body to rotate which causes a slice or flat serve.

Here's the hypothesis: if a player points his/her toes toward the side fence his/her hips can't rotate as much which keeps the upper body more perpendicular to the baseline which prevents the the hips and upper body from rotating too much toward the net which causes the swing to move more parallel to the baseline which causes topspin. Sorry for the overly long sentence

I've tried this with several of my students recently and it has worked really well. The serve immediately becomes heavier with higher margin over the net and it goes more toward the opponent's backhand. And this helps the player be more balanced and ready to handle the return. All good things.

Try this out and let me know what you think.

[don_budge]

So here is a very logical question for Don Budge ... what do we ALL need to do better as coaches?

image.png

jeffreycounts...this side by side is so amazing. I sure wish I had your skills. Any chance of a side view...side by side?

I grabbed these stats from the WTA site. This image is sorted on "first serve points won", where Sabalenka is fourth. She is also fourth in percent of service games won, and 5th in Break Point %, although I'm not exactly sure what that means.

https://www.wtatennis.com/stats

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Taking a page out of Dr. House...that incredible character in the television series by the same name. Excellent question tenniscoach1 and knowing you...you have a number of answers of your own. Within the context of this thread and the Aryna Sabalenka serve and the ensuing discussion, I will say this.

Know your students potential. The statistics that are posted in jimlosaltos post are a real number salad for me. I don't put any credibility in any of these numbers except save one...first serve percentage. The rest of them are nebulous and leave for the interpreter to choose their meaning. All of which are totally or nearly totally irrelevant. These days the numbers are cobbled in order to make it appear that someone knows what they are talking about. An attempt to quantify something that is qualitative. The one statistic that doesn't appear in any of these number salads are the most important one...how much of the student's potential is their remaining unrealized versus how much of potential that has been realized. The number as it relates to Aryna is a very low number in the serve department and this is important for a coach to understand because this is a category in her game that can show serious improvement if the proper diagnosis is determined and formulating a cure that can reasonably be applied.

Once you understand that potential realized number then you can critically look at the Aryna serve and begin to break it down...and here you need to have the knowledge, power, wisdom and understanding of Gregory House to make the correct diagnosis. In her case it is not so much an issue of the toss as it is an inadequate setup position and subsequent backswing. Because of her poor setup position she is setup to poorly execute the backswing. Because of a convaluted backswing she is throwing the ball to a place where it will compensate for the collective mess preceding her decision as to where to toss the silly thing. This is what I refer to as a "sequence of compensatory" movements. Each movement set in motion now is predicated on trying to correct the flaw in the preceding movement or in this case her setup position and backswing.

So once you make the correct diagnosis then you have to have at your command the knowledge to prescribe the cure and sell it to the patient. In her case it would be getting her set up properly to accomplish two important objectives in the service motion function. She needs to be set up to aim...which requires proper alignment of her racquet, feet, hips and shoulders. Secondly, she needs to instructed on how to make a proper backswing so that her movement towards the ball will be a more natural transition for her to make her move on the ball.

Coaches must have a huge amount of knowledge first of all. Then it becomes largely an issue of wisdom and understanding. Then the kicker...you must have the persuasive skills to convince your patient that the cure involves change and be able to guide them through those changes. I believe that if I had this patient for a couple of hours a week for a month that her entire concept of serving would be changed. That takes a lot of belief in yourself as a coach or a mentor or whatever you want to call it. A tremendous amount of confidence...particularly when you are working with "successful" athletes. You cannot fool them as they are going to out an imposter immediately. You have to be consistent. You have to have a firm grasp of fundamentals. You have to keep it as simple as possible. You have to have the "arrogance" of Dr. House...because you know that you have all of the above in your bag.

Coaching a sport like tennis or golf is a truly unique proposition. Part physics and part metaphysics. Psychological. Philosophical. Spiritual to the point of being almost religious. Mechanical. There are many doctors in the field and only one Dr. House. There is a reason for that.

[stroke]

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jeffreycounts...this side by side is so amazing. I sure wish I had your skills. Any chance of a side view...side by side?

DB certainly spot on about her head position. I am surprised her neck does noes not hurt. That looks like a painful head/neck position she is in, particularly in the last frame provided by Jeffrey Counts. It would be very interesting seeing her side by side with Sampras or Roddick, who to me have an even better motion that Fed. Aryna also drops her hitting elbow too low as another poster pointed out. And in that last frame, one can really see the tension in her wrist, as it is extended(revealed by the angle of the racquet to her forearm), unlike the neutral wrist of Fed. Interestingly, she looks fine in image 3.

[doctorhl]

DB: The persuasive skills part you mention( the art side of instructional technique), has always been the difficult part for me. Even with a solid knowledge base, verbal presentation of technique requires extremely careful selection and timed introduction of descriptive motion words (or face " death by kinesiology"). That is what is so wonderful about this website John has built.... an evolving instructional visual model that will one day be cost effective and simple enough to implement in real time on the court and replace much of today's predominant verbal instruction for technique development. I suppose a visually -based instructional pattern play archive would be next in line for the future.

[stotty]

I tend to agree with don_budge in that the backswing sets the table for everything else...that ''everything else'' which happens in a fraction of a second...and that very important ''everything else'' is not actually controllable other than through a correct set up and a well controlled backswing.

I always likes Brian Gordon's motives for gaining greater understanding though research. It wasn't to gain knowledge for the sake of gaining knowledge, but so that he could devise ways to teach his discoveries to his students. Devising simple ways to teach complex stuff is important and not easily done. Some coaches seem to overlook this and think it enough just to have knowledge.

As my late father would often say, and something I also say to me students: ""Nothing worthwhile ever comes easy"