Interactive Forum April 2023: Aryna Sabalenka Serve

[don_budge]

https://www.rolandgarros.com/en-us/video/rg2023-highlights-muchova-v-sabalenka-semi-final

[tenniscoach1]

Interesting video … so much potential in both players if they can grasp technique for understanding how to better initiate power as they continue to grow into pro tennis … takes a lot of time and its step by step but there teams are doing a great job!

[don_budge]

https://www.google.com/search?q=muchova+vs+sabalenka+french+open+youtube&client=firefox-b-d&ei=aryOZMy5EsOr3AOo74KwCA&start=20&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjMlvTTr8z_AhXDFXcKHai3AIY4ChDy0wN6BAgSEAc&biw=1280&bih=944&dpr=1#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:fd922d22,vid:q8s3-gxntcU

[onielrickler]

It's common for professional tennis players' serves to be a topic of discussion and analysis among fans, coaches, and analysts. The specific technique and effectiveness of Sabalenka's serve may vary based on different factors, such as court surface, opponent, and individual match conditions. Assisting with migrating applications and infrastructure to cloud platforms like https://mlsdev.com/blog/devops-services Microsoft Azure, or Google Cloud Platform (GCP), as well as managing cloud resources efficiently.

[don_budge]

Interesting video … so much potential in both players if they can grasp technique for understanding how to better initiate power as they continue to grow into pro tennis … takes a lot of time and its step by step but there teams are doing a great job!

Interesting in contrast of styles. Muchova idolized Roger Federer. She really channeled him with some truly beautiful volleys. Chris Evert was commentating the match and she had some interesting insights...for a change. She mentioned how Sabalenka had one gear...full machine. Muchova did some nice gear shifting to change the pace some. Completely different philosophies coaching wise. These foundations have been laid many years ago. I like the paradigm that Muchova's coach went with. I would have liked to seen her "full Federer" with a one-handed backhand. I believe that a woman is going to come along with a skill set completely different from the rest and it is going to cause the field problems. A Federeresque skill set. Muchova is the closest I have seen so far with her ability to capitalize on the short ball and move forwards and finish at the net. I would be looking for a more dominant serve from her. But all in all a very nice motion. Potential? Room for improvement?

[stroke]

Interesting in contrast of styles. Muchova idolized Roger Federer. She really channeled him with some truly beautiful volleys. Chris Evert was commentating the match and she had some interesting insights...for a change. She mentioned how Sabalenka had one gear...full machine. Muchova did some nice gear shifting to change the pace some. Completely different philosophies coaching wise. These foundations have been laid many years ago. I like the paradigm that Muchova's coach went with. I would have liked to seen her "full Federer" with a one-handed backhand. I believe that a woman is going to come along with a skill set completely different from the rest and it is going to cause the field problems. A Federeresque skill set. Muchova is the closest I have seen so far with her ability to capitalize on the short ball and move forwards and finish at the net. I would be looking for a more dominant serve from her. But all in all a very nice motion. Potential? Room for improvement?

Sometimes it is all about who you are standing or sitting besides. For instance, Chris sounds very good sitting next to Mary Carillo.

[don_budge]

Interesting in contrast of styles. Muchova idolized Roger Federer. She really channeled him with some truly beautiful volleys. Chris Evert was commentating the match and she had some interesting insights...for a change. She mentioned how Sabalenka had one gear...full machine. Muchova did some nice gear shifting to change the pace some. Completely different philosophies coaching wise. These foundations have been laid many years ago. I like the paradigm that Muchova's coach went with. I would have liked to seen her "full Federer" with a one-handed backhand. I believe that a woman is going to come along with a skill set completely different from the rest and it is going to cause the field problems. A Federeresque skill set. Muchova is the closest I have seen so far with her ability to capitalize on the short ball and move forwards and finish at the net. I would be looking for a more dominant serve from her. But all in all a very nice motion. Potential? Room for improvement?

The questions of potential and room for improvement are what coaches should be addressing. Chris Evert made another interesting point during her commentary. She said that playing the game of Muchova in the different variations and strategies (read Roger Federer) takes a longer time to develop because of the variety. She used herself as an example as the baseline two handed backhand player. The one handed backhand all court game is much more complicated. I am not sure that I agree that it takes that much longer to develop though it does take a lot more creative thinking and it is a rare coach who is qualified to teach it nowadays. It is easier to just use the default two handed backhand backcourt game. Case in point is John's current backhand makeover article. He is a coach who welcomes the opportunity to take on the one handed backhand. My partner at the club actually came at me ranting and raving one day..."no one handed backhands! Only two handed!" I tried to calm him down but it ended up going all the way to the top of the club in the form of some idiot dispute. A moderator was called in from the Swedish Tennis Federation (a guy who worked with Harry Hopman and had a win over Boris Becker) who found it highly entertaining that an American in Sweden was upsetting the apple cart. It was an interesting discussion that culminated in me asking the two of them a question..."what hand is the power generator in the two handed backhand?" They couldn't agree on which one it was. Point to the American.

The video's that I posted don't have the Chris Evert commentary, which is too bad. She made some interesting comments from the old school school of thought. Chris for her part ended up playing a lot more net play than she gets credit for. She came in plenty and when presented with the short ball took it as an invitation to go to the net. dimbleby made a good point in pointing out the Muchova march to the ladies final and the contrast of her style. I was very, very impressed with Muchova's volley technique. Her backhand volley is a beauty. Evert also made a comment on how crowded it was in the Sabalenka box. Apparently she has assembled a very large team while Muchova's was not so big. I don't understand why it takes so many people to manage a player these days. McEnroe seemed to have pretty much traveled alone without so much as a coach. He managed to eat his way up the food chain rather well. Could it be that a lot of this team people are just taking up space? Personally I don't think I could stand that many people around me when trying to concentrate on winning a tennis match. A good sound coach would be sufficient. A lot of over thinking these days.

[dimbleby69]

A Federeresque skill set. Muchova is the closest I have seen so far with her ability to capitalize on the short ball and move forwards and finish at the net. I would be looking for a more dominant serve from her. But all in all a very nice motion. Potential? Room for improvement?

Those last two questions sound like a bit of a tease don...a bit...rhetorical!

Muchova's serve has been quite erratic over the time I've been following her progress (2 yrs or so?), but everything about her game seems to be settling down after the return to her previous coach. There are still moments when she seems to be thinking about it though, like it's not quite second nature.

[dimbleby69]

Couple of quotes from don_budge's comments in this thread and in the Monte Carlo thread (many thanks for these posts):

"From setup position we initiate the backswing. In the "Monte Carlo" thread I mention a bobbing motion of the racquet head before initiating the backswing...this has the effect of "waggling" the racquet head to help the process of initiating from a static position. A tiny bit of motion helps to establish the tempo of the backswing which is of ultimate importance in order to reduce the necessity of any "compensating" moves to get the thing synched properly."

"Jarry on the other hand makes a beautiful move with his backswing...he takes the racquet back at the same speed he shifts his weight from front foot to back foot."


At times I have managed to find the right momentum and timing in the backswing but not been able to put my finger on quite what made it click and feel so effortless. The above insights give me some confidence that at least I'm in the right ball park. Thank you.

Amongst the many variables that can go wrong is what to do with my head. In at least one video Fed keeps his gaze rigidly down the court as though his head is resisting the weight shift of the rest of the body that the shoulders have initiated. I seem to get better results by letting the head go along for the ride momentarily, allowing my gaze to fall on my feet, before turning it back toward the net and upwards as the arms separate and start to extend. Perhaps that is another evil little compensation move.... ;-)


The waggle - my arms are in what I consider to be Pete Sampras position before starting the motion. Both elbows bent and relaxed, ball in throat of racket. A less extreme version of what Brian Gottfried did - he almost seemed to be hugging the ball and racket to his chest. Then I definitely make an effort to keep my head still as my shoulders get things moving, allowing the arms to extend slightly taking the racket head briefly toward the net. Is that the kind of thing you mean when you refer to Popyrin letting the racket "bob", don_budge?



regards
Rob

[doctorhl]

The waggle, which includes weight shifting, is a big deal for some people to start the service backward motion from a static position as Budge indicates and comes in many forms. It is a confidence builder for rthym and synchronization. This concept is especially critical for many players in Golf, with the putter first backswing movement the most difficult, as it is initiated with an imperception muscle contraction.

[don_budge]

Couple of quotes from don_budge's comments in this thread and in the Monte Carlo thread (many thanks for these posts):

"From setup position we initiate the backswing. In the "Monte Carlo" thread I mention a bobbing motion of the racquet head before initiating the backswing...this has the effect of "waggling" the racquet head to help the process of initiating from a static position. A tiny bit of motion helps to establish the tempo of the backswing which is of ultimate importance in order to reduce the necessity of any "compensating" moves to get the thing synched properly."

"Jarry on the other hand makes a beautiful move with his backswing...he takes the racquet back at the same speed he shifts his weight from front foot to back foot."

At times I have managed to find the right momentum and timing in the backswing but not been able to put my finger on quite what made it click and feel so effortless. The above insights give me some confidence that at least I'm in the right ball park. Thank you.

Amongst the many variables that can go wrong is what to do with my head. In at least one video Fed keeps his gaze rigidly down the court as though his head is resisting the weight shift of the rest of the body that the shoulders have initiated. I seem to get better results by letting the head go along for the ride momentarily, allowing my gaze to fall on my feet, before turning it back toward the net and upwards as the arms separate and start to extend. Perhaps that is another evil little compensation move.... ;-)

The waggle - my arms are in what I consider to be Pete Sampras position before starting the motion. Both elbows bent and relaxed, ball in throat of racket. A less extreme version of what Brian Gottfried did - he almost seemed to be hugging the ball and racket to his chest. Then I definitely make an effort to keep my head still as my shoulders get things moving, allowing the arms to extend slightly taking the racket head briefly toward the net. Is that the kind of thing you mean when you refer to Popyrin letting the racket "bob", don_budge?

regards
Rob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnwYdF8a5ws

Excellent dimbleby69...take a look at this video of the most famous tie-breaker in tennis history. McEnroe is performing the "bobbing motion" to perfection. The up and down of the racquet head and his entire being for that matter. This is a rehearsal for the motion. He bobs once...he bobs twice and then he's ready to go. Very rhythmic. A great ritual. I have always loved the McEnroe service motion. He very rarely if ever had a bad serving day. It was always so effective. The rhythm of his backswing and the seamless transition between the backswing into the forward swing was a key. Such a smooth frictionless delivery for a seemingly unorthodox motion. He wasn't so unorthodox but his side saddle setup position gave it the appearance of being so.

Ironically...he developed a bit of hitch later on in his career and he sought out none other than John Yandell to help him sort things out. Once the hitch was identified by JY, Johnny was able to get the motion back on track. Literally speaking. I think there is an article somewhere here on the site about the collaboration. Fascinating experience for both Johns I am sure.

The waggle, which includes weight shifting, is a big deal for some people to start the service backward motion from a static position as Budge indicates and comes in many forms. It is a confidence builder for rthym and synchronization. This concept is especially critical for many players in Golf, with the putter first backswing movement the most difficult, as it is initiated with an imperception muscle contraction.

Thanks doctorhl...this is a perfect description of what the golf waggle or the bob in the service motion is functionally for. I often compare service motions to an upside down golf swing. Instead of teeing it down...we "tee" it up high. So it is interesting to read into your description how it works in both motions in order to start a motion from a static position. The waggle and the bob help to break the ice so to speak. So well put...the comments about weight shifting and synchronization. Perfect.

[don_budge]

Sometimes it is all about who you are standing or sitting besides. For instance, Chris sounds very good sitting next to Mary Carillo.

Chris comes across as something of a leftover "Ice Maiden" at times. Sort of devoid of emotion. Kind of cold...and bitchy. But she really impressed me in her comments about the contrasting opponents in Sabalenka and Muchova. She really nailed it.

[stroke]

Chris comes across as something of a leftover "Ice Maiden" at times. Sort of devoid of emotion. Kind of cold...and bitchy. But she really impressed me in her comments about the contrasting opponents in Sabalenka and Muchova. She really nailed it.

She is all that. That is why she looks her best as an annoucer sitting next to Mary Carillo.

[dimbleby69]

The waggle, which includes weight shifting, is a big deal for some people to start the service backward motion from a static position as Budge indicates and comes in many forms. It is a confidence builder for rthym and synchronization. This concept is especially critical for many players in Golf, with the putter first backswing movement the most difficult, as it is initiated with an imperception muscle contraction.

Many thanks doctor.

From the serving point of view, do players who start with their weight on the back foot give themselves an advantage here (Sampras comes first to mind)? One less part of the motion to worry about.

[dimbleby69]

[QUOTE=don_budge;n101259]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnwYdF8a5ws

Excellent dimbleby69...take a look at this video of the most famous tie-breaker in tennis history. McEnroe is performing the "bobbing motion" to perfection. The up and down of the racquet head and his entire being for that matter. This is a rehearsal for the motion. He bobs once...he bobs twice and then he's ready to go. Very rhythmic. A great ritual. I have always loved the McEnroe service motion. He very rarely if ever had a bad serving day. It was always so effective. The rhythm of his backswing and the seamless transition between the backswing into the forward swing was a key. Such a smooth frictionless delivery for a seemingly unorthodox motion. He wasn't so unorthodox but his side saddle setup position gave it the appearance of being so.

Ironically...he developed a bit of hitch later on in his career and he sought out none other than John Yandell to help him sort things out. Once the hitch was identified by JY, Johnny was able to get the motion back on track. Literally speaking. I think there is an article somewhere here on the site about the collaboration. Fascinating experience for both Johns I am sure.

[QUOTE=don_budge;n101259]

Thanks don.

The first time I came across JY was when I happened upon a copy of Visual Tennis - Foreword by John McEnroe. Great photo of J Mac and JY courtside looking at video replays - "John McEnroe, a Visual Tennis Case Study"! J Mac had been taking the racket back behind the plane of his body in the backswing.

You can never watch that tie-break too many times. I had forgotten how many 'bobs' there were to the McEnroe serve - often two trial bobs before the two bigger ones before the start. From memory there were subtle shifts in this ritual and the synchronisation of the arms as he changed rackets to the Dunlop and then the Dunlop graphite one. Looking at him in 1980 almost makes me think I should exaggerate what I'm doing (although I'm surprised at seeing how his hands separate to early and then pass each other as the toss and backswing begin). I actually managed to get a couple of videos on Monday evening and my 'waggle' is pretty modest, and may be hindering the track the racket gets on. When I extend my arms slightly to start the motion, taking the racket toward the net after a couple of practice bobs, this movement takes both hands away from the body, to the side as you look from a rear view. That is, the waggle forward isn't entirely perpendicular to the net, but briefly promises to point the racket at the net post. Having looked at Fed's and Dimitrov's motions (neither have a waggle really but they are close to the model...or are the model...) they start with arms extended and racket pointing to the 'right' but when the motion gets going they've pulled their hands closer to the body and as momentum gathers and the backswing 'takes off' the racket passes not very far in front of their shins. Am I right in thinking this promotes the way in which Fed gets the racket on a track in front of his body, as he builds to the trophy position? Perhaps it's a mirage. Given McEnroe's stance it's not as clear, but it seems the head of the racket sweeps close to his shins. I have a gap. Once upon a time I used to start my motion in a 'Tim Mayotte' position, chest pointing at the net (Becker also did this?). I think this promoted a better track for the backswing, but in rebuilding my serve after injury I've lost it.

Thanks again for your comments.

regards
Rob