Interactive Forum April 2023: Aryna Sabalenka Serve

[stotty]

So true, as we have mentioned somewhere on some thread on this site, about the only true overhauls we have seen are the Henin and Mannarino forehands, for different reasons. Justine chose to overhaul hers, with great success. It is still to this day one of the best, if not the best in women's tennis ever. Mannarino had to change his to continue to play ATP tennis, as he was having severe wrist pain. I know of no player ever that has overhauled a serve as a professional. Novak certainly had his issues, he had a decent serve originally on Tour, and lost his way with it, and found his way again. I certainly would not call it an overhaul, not even close.

good examples (and I applaud both of your efforts to get this thread back on topic. thank you!).

We may be witnessing one in progress, with early results not encouraging but lots of time left, in Coco Gauff.

As Brad Gilbert said, roughly "Holy cow. Opponents are hitting absolutely everything to Coco's forehand. It's like a shift in baseball."

When frequent TPN contributor Kyle LaCroix shared that on Twitter, I mentioned that I had new-found appreciate for how difficult his job was -- and how persistent muscle memory and habits are.

A NYT Magazine profile of Coco a few months back mainly focused on family, promise, personality but had one moment of note inserted. Coco was on court in the background while the writer was interviewing her team, working on her forehead. Urged on she repeated "I know. I know."

Remarkable talent, stuck for now on a plateau. Hope she climbs off.

Interesting examples from stroke. I just wonder how far away Henin was (and the other players) from her overhauled forehand to start with? I have never seen any before or after clips. Was it just a case of elevating her elbows and clipping the backswing down or did it involve far more than that? I would be curious to know because I have a theory that turning a poor forehand into a good one is close to impossible given how decisive the shot is in the game and the mental trauma it causes when I player deep down doesn't feel it is secure. It's a hard shot to rewire technically.

I thought Gavin's comment about a poor shot is never mental interesting and probably true. He said it's the coach's way of blaming the player because he doesn't know where the problem lies in the stroke.

[stroke]

I am not certain I am buying in on Gavin's thoughts about never being mental is true, but I like Gavin's thoughts. I think Justine really did completely overhaul her forehand, all for the better. To me, she shortened her take back to the ATP type 3 model, she got much better elbow extension, and she relaxed her wrist, made it passive, all of these things completely transforming her forehand. Her coach was completely the architect of this. Well done by him.

[don_budge]

As I see it the crux of the problem, after any consideration of mental scar tissue yips (not to be ignored), is her hitting elbow, as first mentioned above by doctorhl . Unless that comes up before the forearm begins its action the movement is more akin to putting a shot, a push, rather than a circular crack-the-whip of sequential levers. It's not impossible to hit a forceful serve that way, but the margin for error is very small, as her serving history shows. Note that she almost always misses long; pushed slice is not going to have a great chance of falling in the box. I'd also agree with the stotty quote from MacMillan, that she should adjust her toss and go to the kick when she can't "find" a groove for a more flat/slice motion; super hard and out isn't a winning strategy, even if some small percentage of serves are in the box.

While a more rhythmic motion would be a plus, I think there are quite a few dependable serves on the tours that are not picture perfect. But having that elbow, a fulcrum, in the right place is key.

Others? Somebody else calling for an overhaul of this contortionist...Aryna Sabalenka? I must have missed something. All I have heard are reasons that it cannot be done. I have been writing on this forum that the coaching in general has been hijacked. I have maintained that for years. Coaches are afraid to coach? Isn't that what they are paid for? Yada...yada...yada. The most important statistic is the realization percentage of a player's potential. If a coach does not have the capacity to take that player to approaching 100%...what are they doing for their wages? Applying sun screen?

Enter into the mix one jthb1021. He has been a contributor on the forum for a couple of years now and he sent me a video of some of his strokes...just testing the water. I saw this fellow's serve and I have to say...he was just pounding it. But, be that as it may, I saw something in it that gave me the impression that as good as it was it could be improved. He still had potential...a good deal of potential. I guarentee you one thing about his serve...nobody else in their right mind would have touched it. I went into it full machine and this guy went along with the program. Results? Ahhh...big time.

I have asked him to supply a video so that I might give a reasonable answer with evidence to you doctorhl. But in advance...this one is on the coaches. As tennisskp1515 proclaimed that Aryna's serve was good to go save for an elbow out of position that he credited you with observing. All the rest said there wasn't anything wrong with except...the toss. Another doing a comparison of numbers. You just cannot quantify this stuff. While you are asking a very important question, the real problem is most people do not want to hear the truth. Coaches are not nearly as competent as they should be and if that is the case...they protect their pet projects jealously and won't let anyone around them to tell them the sad truth. Tender egos. Much like nearly every tennis and golf coach that I have ever known. Protective and insecure. I don't have that problem. I encouraged my players to shop around in order that they would understand just who it was they were working with.

I really like your protocols for success...doctorhl.

They have eyes but they do not see. They have ears but they do not hear. Lacking wisdom...and understanding.

Well...besides that here is another indication that there is something rotten in Denmark with the Aryna Sabalenka service motion and the implications it has on her entire game. When she faces a player like Iga Swiatek she obviously needs all of the aggressive tools she can muster and she must maximize their performance as well. tennisskp1515 exhibits typical modern coaching instincts in see nothing and do nothing. Nothing to see here...alright an elbow displacement or some other compensatory move. jimlosaltos...what can I say? Just a complete lack of understanding of the difference between winning and losing. It wasn?t a difference? Not a factor? Says who? On the contrary...there are some rather obvious problems begging to be addressed.

While tennisskp1515 is of the opinion that less than fluid is just ok...at 38 in the video we see evidence that this is just an obvious falsehood. Sabalenka has a sitter of an overhead but her overhead motion perfectly mirrors her service motion to a tee. Look how she fails to get her feet set (moving platform stance feet) and she fails miserably to pound the sitter into next week. Instead the little retriever Swiatek manages to get her Tecnifibre racquet on the ball and manages another lob and this one flutters down inside the service line and Aryna just makes a mess of it. Not sure what the score was but the margins are not that big. You cannot afford to give away points like this. Aryna ducks her head before impact as if trying to get out of her own way and the result...well it isn't pretty. She totally flubs it harmlessly into the middle of the net.

To quote the number of double faults and say that this wasn't the difference borders on...well I won't even say. But five is not an insignificant number. It represents a lack belief in her motion. Or rather lack of belief in the most crucial component of her game. For a player of Sabalenka to have a successful outcome against the retriever Swiatek she has to be aggressive. She must be on the attack when the situation warrents it. Certainly the service game is such a situation and the fact that Aryna must have lost her serve on a number of occasions shows that this is an area of her game that is due some concentrated effort after careful assessment. Remember...the most important statistic to a tennis player in the big picture is the ratio of potential realized to total potential. The overhead was another ugly indication that the potential is unrealized. If she could manage to eek out another fifteen percent of potential realized...who knows how much further down the road that might carry her.

I can understand the jimlosaltos asssessment considering the source but tennisskp1515 wrote from a coaching perspective and that is worrisome. It isn't that the Aryna motion lacks fluidity...it actually lacks any idea. Some are speculating that a player of her caliber cannot afford to take time away to straighten this out...but I say she cannot afford to not take the time away and resolve it.

The actual exchange...

[don_budge]

Interactive Forum April 2023: Aryna Sabalenka Serve

So here it is, Aryna’s 1st Serve front and back views, courtesy of Jim Fawcette.

It’s been a topic of discussion, speculation, and controversy. I’ll hold off on my opinion for now.

What do you guys say?

Nothing that I wrote or suggested is not within forum guidelines. I stuck to the topic diligently and had my say. Where was the foul?

[don_budge]

I learned a long time ago as a coach to just shut up when an old school veteran coach like Don Budge speaks. He’s giving you constructive feedback in HIS OWN way and it's your job to focus in on what he is saying and not act up and take it so personal. Understand he doesn’t need to agree with you - understand an older coach operate differently - if you take things personally it shows you lack game - be nice and back back up what you say with valid arguments, etc. You’re not going to earn respect acting this way as a coach - Steve and I used to go at it … but, he’s 25 years older than me and respect ain’t something he hands out to newbies here. When your dealing with guys like him you sit back and learn. Generally never a good idea to talk back to the elders anyways - they can say as they please cause they have earned that right, they speak of thanks to experience and wisdom and they've been raised differently. Or - you can just block out the guy - but, that's not smart as we all know the level of the man's coaching and track record and years of writing on this board.

Tennisskp1515 about 2 years ago John Yandell did a series on the slice backhand. The classic slice then the modern slice which led me to video my slice backhand and share my thoughts of how I naturally seemed to have evolved into a modern slice backhand because I sure wasn’t taught that way. Budge responded to my comment asking what grip I used hahahahaha!! In my mind I’m thinking a F’n continental! He then asked something else that made me feel like I needed to defend myself because I even though I am a good player and coach in my little pond here in Louisiana I have so much respect for the tennis minds on this site and have learned so much more than I have shared. Budge asked me to send a video of my slice then it evolved into videoing my serve. Suddenly we began a project of working on my serve together and a very special friendship truly blossomed! He is crazy picky and always sees room for a little improvement as he and I were trying to find what I called my “divine serve.” The serve journey we went on was amazing and unfortunately I can’t seem to post what we settled on which is just short of divine for me. But there was more to it than that Budge helped me see more room for improvement in everything where so often we think things are good enough. TPN is better with Budge contributing and his grand slam tournament messages are so good! My relationship with him started by feeling disrespected in a way but evolved into one of the most special friendships I’ve had in my adult life. He’s tough and sees the world differently than I do and I needed that!
This is a great site and thank you for posting on here! Sabalenkas serve is a topic that should get a lot of discussion. There is, as Steve would probably start with her, a lot of potential there. Who can get her to see it and tap into it? Who knows but they don’t seem to be in her entourage at the moment.

Nice diatribe. You’re a fantastic writer. Anyways, Don Budge hasn’t been off the mark in the past two decades. He’ll figure you out pretty quick if he hasn’t already. I am getting the spider sense intuition you are trying to assert control and influence over others … I don’t care for your gaslighting tactics. History has shown us in two decades plus those who disagreed with Don Budge have tended to be the ones with issues and problems. That’s the last I have to say in this matter. We should all be thankful that Steve even posts on this board. Go through thousands of posts and read the wisdom.

jthb1021 and tenniscoach1 (aka hockeyscout)...

They say that you can judge a man by who his friends are. If life boiled down to being stuck in a foxhole, the two of you would be a great combination. My father taught me the word respect first of all. It is something that is earned...he told me. I must say that I am very lucky...even blessed to have earned your respect and loyalty. Two necessary elements to having a successful coach/player relationship. I have learned much more from each of you than I could ever have taught you or yours. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your truth.

[tenniscoach1]

Interesting examples from stroke. I just wonder how far away Henin was (and the other players) from her overhauled forehand to start with? I have never seen any before or after clips. Was it just a case of elevating her elbows and clipping the backswing down or did it involve far more than that? I would be curious to know because I have a theory that turning a poor forehand into a good one is close to impossible given how decisive the shot is in the game and the mental trauma it causes when I player deep down doesn't feel it is secure. It's a hard shot to rewire technically.

I thought Gavin's comment about a poor shot is never mental interesting and probably true. He said it's the coach's way of blaming the player because he doesn't know where the problem lies in the stroke.

Gavin is a very bright man … ideally you want your athletes to think mentally the way he does as he’s a competitor. But, being wired that way isn’t for everyone. That’s a coach by the way who has worked under some VERY TOUGH men coaches. It’s real unfortunate that Gavin’s ideas haven’t caught on more mainstream. He’s got interesting ideas.

[tenniscoach1]

jthb1021 and tenniscoach1 (aka hockeyscout)...

They say that you can judge a man by who his friends are. If life boiled down to being stuck in a foxhole, the two of you would be a great combination. My father taught me the word respect first of all. It is something that is earned...he told me. I must say that I am very lucky...even blessed to have earned your respect and loyalty. Two necessary elements to having a successful coach/player relationship. I have learned much more from each of you than I could ever have taught you or yours. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your truth.

You’re dad was spot on. Thanks sir!

[don_budge]

Bit disappointed to read the latter part of this thread and find no celebration of the Sabalenka-Muchova match.

Always hoped the stars might align and give Muchova a season in the spotlight. Shame she's about to bump into the immovable object in Swiatek, but she has looked like an unstoppable force at times, using all the variety you could ask for. Hope she has enough in the tank to give Iga something to think about.

Muchova keeps the racket in front of her body on both wings and as such is as close to a poster-girl for BG's agenda of teaching women to hit 'ATP' technique as any - more than Iga, imo (I await to be corrected by those who know better!).

regards
Rob

The Roger Federer Service Setup and Backswing...

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/index.html?dir=rf_serve/RF_1st_Serve&stroke=RF1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide1.mp4 &new=

Listen up Aryana...I am only going to say this one million times. Or whatever it takes. Here is the end all a be all of service motion setup position and backswing. Courtesy of yours truly...don_budge.

Setup Position...

In order to make a proper and perfect backswing in the service motion, you must be properly setup to make it effortlessly without undue laborious effort. Using the right arrow to click forwards frame by frame.

Frame 1...This is the Federer interpretation. Racquet head...pointing to the ground at a 30 degree angle or so. Pointing in the direction of the target. I recomment aiming the racquet head as you would a gun at the target. Notice the position of the ball hand. Extended well into the court...the ball is nearly in position to go straight up from here to where he will make contact. He actually may toss it just a tad forwards to extend himself a bit more into the court at contact.

Position of the feet. The line at the end of Federer's toes will extend somewhat to the right of his target. Many players do this naturally. My recommendation for the sake of argument and aiming is to make this line directly at your target. Now you have created two lines aiming at your target...the feet and the racquet. We will create a third line in the backswing.

The shape of his arm is slightly bent at the elbow and he will mainain this shape in a totally relaxed manner void of any semblance of tension throughout the backswing.

The weight at address (golf lingo for setup position) is squarely in the front foot with minimal weight in the back foot. Perfect for the illustration of weight shift. Body bent at the waist and leaning into the court.

Even before the player assumes address position he has in his head calculated what type of serve he is going to deliver based on what his opponent has shown him what he can do with the return, based on what the score is and based on what the conditions are. Perfect techniques increases the number of permutations and combinations a player has at his command.

Backswing...

From setup position we initiate the backswing. In the "Monte Carlo" thread I mention a bobbing motion of the racquet head before initiating the backswing...this has the effect of "waggling" the racquet head to help the process of initiating from a static position. A tiny bit of motion helps to establish the tempo of the backswing which is of ultimate importance in order to reduce the necessity of any "compensating" moves to get the thing synched properly.

In frames 1 through 20 Roger simply lets his arms sort of fall while simultaneously turning his shoulders. It is the turning of the shoulders and the body that is supplying the impetus to move the racquet back and not the arms. The arms are simply following the shoulders in a tension free manner. Same with the racquet head...it is simply following the arms. So the sequence is subtley...shoulders, arms, hands and racquet. By doing this the body stays in synch that was established at address.

In frame 20 we see the fruits of Roger's labor...both hands arrive at their lowest postion in the backswing together. The weight has been transferred from the front foot that was firmly into the ground to the back foot that was poised on to his big toe. Now that the transfer is complete and virtually the entire weight is squarely on the back foot and minimal weight on the front heel. He has let gravity dictate the entire motion by using his shoulders to dictate the tempo. Not the arms. Not the hands. The shoulders and the weight of the racquet head.

At this first telling point in the motion Roger is perfectly timed to continue. He is also perfectly aligned. Notice how the shoulders are now square to the target. See where the ball is now...it is now behind the baseline on the same line to the target that it was at address.

Forwards 4 frames and look at the tremendous width Roger has created in his backswing. The tip of the racquet is about as far back as he can reach. This is extremely important and we can think of this as the second check point. Notice too that both hands, the racquet hand and the tossing hand, have both extended out away from his body together as well as up. He is still rotatng his shoulders while the weight distribution remains the same as frame 20. By extending his tossing hand forwards he is releasing the ball on virtually the same line he was holding the ball in his setup position. Another point to notice is that his arm is in the same position that it was at address. He has kept his arm very relaxed and his grip on the racquet is extremely relaxed as well as you can see the racquet is lagging somewhat behind his hand because he is allowing the swinging motion of the backswing to get the racquet "up the hill" to the top of the backswing. Effortless power in the making.

In the next 6 frames Roger continues to rotate his shoulders and he also is "tilting" them by leaning somewhat backwards into his rear leg. Some might say "arching his back". He completes his backswing in 4 more frames and at the exact same moment he is initiating the forwards swing he is driving with his rear foot so that the weight has once again shifted back to the front foot. He is back up on his toes in the rear foot.

This is how it is done. I have written numerous times comparing this motion to that of a rollercoaster ride where the entire ride is based on the force of gravity. The racquet is making a loop behind Roger as he comes out of the backswing and into the forward motion and the racquet head is accelerating to a climactic point at impact. Racquet speed is greatest at impact. Perfect timing. Perfectly synched. Repeatable under all conditions as this motion is completely devoid of any friction. You know...those nasty little hitches and hiccups in virtually every single serve on the tour.

Here...take a look at it from the rear view. I could talk at length about the "track" of the backswing...but enough already. You get the point. Go back to the side by side of Roger and Aryna. Connect the dots. Could I fix Aryna's serve? I have no doubt in my mind that I could. I positively could.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/index.html?dir=rf_serve/RF_1st_Serve&stroke=RF1stSDeuceCourtLevelRear1.mp4 &new=

A bit disappointed in the thread? It is without merit.

I saw that match. One of the few that I have watched during the 2023 French Open. A boring event. Abysmally boring compared to the threads of yesteryear. No matter. Time moves on...it waits for no man. Time to move on. Shot 75 the other day and 77 the next. Chipping away at it. Much was made of my age earlier in this thread. It's laughable. A shot here and a shot there and soon I will be flirting with shooting my age. It's a lot of work. For an old man.

But anyways...I just had to take care of a little business here. I did watch a good part of this match with the serve of Aryna Sabalenka in mind. Does Muchova have a first name? Well...lo and behold it turns out she does. Karolina. All the variety you could ask for? How about finesse? A tad more finesse than the staple given these days. A touch of finesse...like a fresh breeze in the stifling Parisian air at the Roland Garros stadium. What air there is is sucked out of the stadium by the boring monotonous play on the hallowed court. Enter Karolina. Nice strokes and nice demeanor. Almost elegant. Service motion? Not bad. It's a pinpoint and without the standard noticeable hitch. There is potential still left in the motion. I will watch more of it.

Aryna Sabalenka my dear. I feel that she is a student of mine. I've grown to like her quite a lot. A nice looking woman with a physique suitable for bullying her lady opponents. And the serve!!! Yes...the serve. The one or two threads on the forum in recent memory that have struck up some interest. Not that the braintrust is up for anything too deep. They like their one liners. They are most comfortable with themselves. Birds of a feather.

But it looks to me as if Aryna has been to the don_budge school of "frictionless serving". Somehow it almost looks like the discussion somehow got to her noodle. There is a connection here on the forum and I have my suspicions. Not that I need any credit. I don't. My knowledge is stand alone. Take it or leave it. A couple of things that gave me the impression that she had read my assessments...number one is the rhythm and the reduction of friction in the backswing...very interesting. The transition into the forward swing also looked have taken a step in the right direction. Two very key elements of the serve and two contributors of compensatory moves and the ever evil presence of friction. She did double fault on a set point in the second set tie-breaker that made me wince. But overall...it looked less "manufactured". Less homemade. I didn't watch much of the third...or did I? I cannot remember. I must be getting to be like "the old uncle at Thanksgiving dinner" as one of the more brilliant newbies on the forum expressed.

[tenniscoach1]

If she’s been listening to Gavin closely in the specific areas he teaches - she will get better - she needs to follow his protocols so she’s able to do what coaches like Steve are discussing in terms of positions she needs to get into. It takes a while to understand speed, engagement, power … but, when they get how to not muscle through and stop training slow speed strength and know the difference between training and de-training … everything then they’ll get the technique and roll through whatever you put them through rather easily. Any athlete can get technique easily when the bodies set up to fire the right way. To set up a good serve in a woman tennis player you need a team of experts and an athlete with the rotator cuff, grip strength and ideal limb length and spinal column for tennis.

[tenniscoach1]

A bit disappointed in the thread? It is without merit.

I saw that match. One of the few that I have watched during the 2023 French Open. A boring event. Abysmally boring compared to the threads of yesteryear. No matter. Time moves on...it waits for no man. Time to move on. Shot 75 the other day and 77 the next. Chipping away at it. Much was made of my age earlier in this thread. It's laughable. A shot here and a shot there and soon I will be flirting with shooting my age. It's a lot of work. For an old man.

But anyways...I just had to take care of a little business here. I did watch a good part of this match with the serve of Aryna Sabalenka in mind. Does Muchova have a first name? Well...lo and behold it turns out she does. Karolina. All the variety you could ask for? How about finesse? A tad more finesse than the staple given these days. A touch of finesse...like a fresh breeze in the stifling Parisian air at the Roland Garros stadium. What air there is is sucked out of the stadium by the boring monotonous play on the hallowed court. Enter Karolina. Nice strokes and nice demeanor. Almost elegant. Service motion? Not bad. It's a pinpoint and without the standard noticeable hitch. There is potential still left in the motion. I will watch more of it.

Aryna Sabalenka my dear. I feel that she is a student of mine. I've grown to like her quite a lot. A nice looking woman with a physique suitable for bullying her lady opponents. And the serve!!! Yes...the serve. The one or two threads on the forum in recent memory that have struck up some interest. Not that the braintrust is up for anything too deep. They like their one liners. They are most comfortable with themselves. Birds of a feather.

But it looks to me as if Aryna has been to the don_budge school of "frictionless serving". Somehow it almost looks like the discussion somehow got to her noodle. There is a connection here on the forum and I have my suspicions. Not that I need any credit. I don't. My knowledge is stand alone. Take it or leave it. A couple of things that gave me the impression that she had read my assessments...number one is the rhythm and the reduction of friction in the backswing...very interesting. The transition into the forward swing also looked have taken a step in the right direction. Two very key elements of the serve and two contributors of compensatory moves and the ever evil presence of friction. She did double fault on a set point in the second set tie-breaker that made me wince. But overall...it looked less "manufactured". Less homemade. I didn't watch much of the third...or did I? I cannot remember. I must be getting to be like "the old uncle at Thanksgiving dinner" as one of the more brilliant newbies on the forum expressed.

I kinda learned young to shut up and listen like a good kid when the old uncles and cranky old grandpas talked at the thanksgiving tables lol … feel bad for guys that are disrespectful to the elders and arrogant. Old school guys always understood fundamentals. My daughters been living with an 84 year old woman in London and gone to the next level with her cause she’s respectful - lady’s teaching her how to weed the garden, exposing her to old books and explaining things only an 84 year old knows. The Indians in Canada sure respect elders … it pains me watching an 85 year old paying for tickets at the movies and people assuming things passed them by. Last few years I have really tried to understand the history - that always makes you better. Surprised by technical experts who don’t know the history of tennis - the Tanner serve - spaghetti strings - evolution of shoes - Don Budge - Tilden books - etc etc. Crazy how my kid can put a pool pump together, garden, weed, etc etc … explaining training concepts in sport are even simpler now. Your athletes are only as good as the well rounded peers and older people you put them around from a young age.

[don_budge]

If she’s been listening to Gavin closely in the specific areas he teaches - she will get better - she needs to follow his protocols so she’s able to do what coaches like Steve are discussing in terms of positions she needs to get into. It takes a while to understand speed, engagement, power … but, when they get how to not muscle through and stop training slow speed strength and know the difference between training and de-training … everything then they’ll get the technique and roll through whatever you put them through rather easily. Any athlete can get technique easily when the bodies set up to fire the right way. To set up a good serve in a woman tennis player you need a team of experts and an athlete with the rotator cuff, grip strength and ideal limb length and spinal column for tennis.

I listened to Gavin closely in a video on this forum and quickly deduced that he had not in fact "fixed the Sabalenka serve" as he claimed he did. Then I went into great detail about why he did not and how it could be done. When watching the semifinal with Karolina Muchova it occurred to me that something had changed. It had actually changed along the lines of my analysis. I told my wife that I had an eye for things of this nature. She knows of my attention to detail much to her chagrin. Gavin had about as much of a chance of actually contributing anything to a fix to Aryna's serve as a snowball has a chance in hell. So quickly to the chase...did Gavin have access to the discussion on TP.net to your knowledge?

You don't need a team...you need a doctor who knows what he is doing and who can fly in the face of adversity. You have to have faith. You have to have vision and you have to understand how to get there. Most don't know where to start. Some think that once it is started that they can take it from there. But in the end...it is like the golf swing and it is a search that never truly ends as there is always just a little more potential to be developed. Some microscopic aspect to be mined. I often imagined Roger Federer in his hotel room at night before matches in front of the mirror wondering how to get just a tad more out of the motion. He, in fact, had some potential to be mined. But those around him either didn't know that for a fact...well actually this is more than likely the case.

Has Gavin been attending the don_budge school of frictionless serving night school online?

[tenniscoach1]

Not sure who did what in terms of the technical fixes of her serve and that does not matter anyways big pucture as everyone has a part to play. Guys like Gavin generally are not household names but high level educated like the Seles, Manny P, GSP, Freddie Roach’s … they find him. Chances are he’s worked with a lot of other high-end athletes. However, it’s pretty common to have nondisclosure agreements with the athletes you’re working with - so there’s a few guys that aren’t mentioned. People know where and when to find a guy like him - agents know who is who - etc. Federer serves like Federer because he’s very highly educated. Don’t think it’s just luck. Roger was big time into analytics - Rafa was decades ahead with doctors and Djokovic was miles ahead of NFL teams in sports science and investing in the new/next. Every top player has a guy like Gavin … for instance an old sprinter I knew Brian Clay who won a few Olympic Golds used to go to Israel to a low key private set up. Zero chance at this stage any tennis coach can help her hit the key-points of power and control without a person like Gavin McMillan first installing rate of force production, sequential neurological firing in proper order and most importantly training the spinal column and brain to fire at the rate of speed - control needed to optimize the tennis or any sport technique. Likely it took this girls brain a long time to have a spinal to myelin connection - the quickness of which things need to be done or faster in a blink of an eye, and that takes a lot of forced focused concentration over an extended period of time. It’s never the head technical coaches fault when an athlete doesn’t get it - it’s all on a guy like Gavin and the athlete for not addressing the small work in a consensus mindful manner. Teams, organizations and everyone knowing their strengths, weaknesses and specific role … in the long haul that builds teams and athletes. Bottom line - you really need to put your technical coach in a position to win by giving them an athlete that has number 1 the genetics / and can physically/mentally close the deal, and as well have the durability to put in the repetitions needed to get to a world class level. The great coach is like Freddie Roach, and Monica Seles’ father understand this very clearly. That great athletes understand there’s no chance their technique or tactical game will get better unless they’re addressing these alternate areas that I’m referring to.

[doctorhl]

tenniscoach1: I fully agree with the necessity of using multiple coaches for different areas by today's pros to squeeze out that last 5% of performance n?eded at the top 20 level. If we are honest, we have all seen the naivete of starry eyed junior players( and their parents) on the genetic/physical/mental capacity they will need to even reach a top 100 level.

I don't think I truly appreciate the money that a pro will need to access the team approach throughout a career, nor the mental clarity and perception they will need to manage this " team" without getting bogged down in cross purposes. And that is just the performance side. The management team for the business and personal side is another chapter I suppose. There are some maverick athletes that have managed to bypass the team approach and self manage, however.

That being said, most of the truly professional "elite" athletes I have met are seemingly not enjoying their profession very much, but that could just be jealously on my part.....oh, to have world class talent for just one day!!

[tenniscoach1]

tenniscoach1: I fully agree with the necessity of using multiple coaches for different areas by today's pros to squeeze out that last 5% of performance n?eded at the top 20 level. If we are honest, we have all seen the naivete of starry eyed junior players( and their parents) on the genetic/physical/mental capacity they will need to even reach a top 100 level.

I don't think I truly appreciate the money that a pro will need to access the team approach throughout a career, nor the mental clarity and perception they will need to manage this " team" without getting bogged down in cross purposes. And that is just the performance side. The management team for the business and personal side is another chapter I suppose. There are some maverick athletes that have managed to bypass the team approach and self manage, however.

That being said, most of the truly professional "elite" athletes I have met are seemingly not enjoying their profession very much, but that could just be jealously on my part.....oh, to have world class talent for just one day!!

You think that there are maverick loner people - but, behind the scenes its always someone making the big studs look good. Federer quietly had the most diabolical analytics program ever - Andy Murray utilized so many coaches/experts/surgeons - Djokovic was the first to use a CPOD and Kobe was using anti-gravity movement machines. A couple few Australian players that I won’t name had a great run of results using a doctor that specializes in dual concentric isokinetic machines - one lazy one in particular followed the protocols and did super to his credit by getting his head out of his ass for once. He got dumped when he didn’t take care of things like a man and he reverted to his old low character ways by not investing in his future. Some guys are shit for brains. Hate to say it - but, when your good or high upside you get it for free or at a low cost. There is a cost later lol - but, if your grateful and appreciative all gets worked out. People always want a good athlete or good coach using there system. I got a six figure AI system for athlete evaluation in hockey they give me for free because they want it tested. Probably it will never make it to market as team will buy it, use it and bury it from competitors. If your high upside your not paying for much. People want to be associated with a product/player/coach. Of course its always proper when something/someone works for you in the development phase to cut them a cheque and tell them never to speak of your cooperation or to promote the hell out of that person so you build their brand or the third option is you do what Novak does, invest, bury it forever or make money off the company. Likely that software I use I will get a cheque, percentage or option to invest. I take a gamble cause I see some upside and they give me a lot for free for my ideas/experience. Its a trust business - and you hope everyones reasonable when the winning happens. It might not … but, risk/reward is part of the deal. I think AI’s big so I give my time. Good pros like Connor mcgregor, roger, rafa, novac, you name it … highly organized methodical people. Things are so competitive now you’d better be a very special person on and off the field.

[doctorhl]

tenniscoach1: Thanks for giving us a glimpse into the hypercompetitiveness I suspected had arrived in pro tennis as it has in other pro sports.