Interactive Forum December 2015 Nick Kyrgios Forehand

[johnyandell]

Nick Kyrgios Forehand

If you thought Jack Sock's forehand was extreme or even bizarre, just check out Nick Krygios. Is this an anomaly or the future of the game? Remember Tony Trabert suggested Bjorn Borg hit less topspin when interviewing him--right after Borg had won the U.S. Open!

So what are we seeing? And what does it mean? A higher take back but with an extreme forward pointing racket tip like Sock and that gigantic circular flip. Also a tendency for a short, low, extreme wiper finish.

Or do you see something different? And what about that meaning part?

[stotty]

Borg....US Open

Nick Kyrgios Forehand

If you thought Jack Sock's forehand was extreme or even bizarre, just check out Nick Krygios. Is this an anomaly or the future of the game? Remember Tony Trabert suggested Bjorn Borg hit less topspin when interviewing him--right after Borg had won the U.S. Open!

So what are we seeing? And what does it mean? A higher take back but with an extreme forward pointing racket tip like Sock and that gigantic circular flip. Also a tendency for a short, low, extreme wiper finish.

Or do you see something different? And what about that meaning part?

Borg didn't win the US Open...

I may have changed my mind about racket tips pointing forwards. I used to consider it a no-no, but some players have their rackets pointing forwards for a significant part of their backswing and get away with it.

The significant thing I notice is how high he lifts his right elbow as he goes into his backswing. It looks like he lifts it higher than his shoulder line.

[10splayer]

Sock's looks much more extreme to me in terms of the amount of flip, whippiness. I say this because i generally assess this by the position of the arm and racquet at the point the racquet is pulled. (change of direction, flip) If you compare the positions of the two at this point, Jack has much further to go (rotation of the arm) to get the butt cap leading.

Just my 02 cents, could be wrong.

[kfriedman]

kfriedman

We need to see the bigger picture (GAME SITUATION) to properly and more accurately assess the stroke. If we simply look at his forehand as it appears in this clip, it's got a long tail ...not the short power forehand we see mostly from Fed. BUT, we know the pros demonstrate numerous variations in each stroke based on the game situation. For example, Nick could be hitting a passing shot or wide angle that would require him to wiper excessively to make this shot dip quickly on his opponent.

[stroke]

Sock's looks much more extreme to me in terms of the amount of flip, whippiness. I say this because i generally assess this by the position of the arm and racquet at the point the racquet is pulled. (change of direction, flip) If you compare the positions of the two at this point, Jack has much further to go (rotation of the arm) to get the butt cap leading.

Just my 02 cents, could be wrong.

Nick's fh flip does not seem as violent as Jack's to me either. One other thing, his arm seems to tend be more bent than Jack's. They both have pretty strong semi western grips, which I think does not lend well itself toward a Nadal/Fed/Verdasco type straight arm extension at contact, but Nick seems more cramped at contact overall than Jack. Also, just after contact, Nick does not seem to have as pronounced turnover with the tip of the racquet as Jack. Just after contact(using frame by frame clicks), I think one can see that Nick tends to turn the racquet over more with his whole arm, less snap that Jack.

[johnyandell]

kfriedman,

Good point! There is quite a variety of swings here. What others have you seen or would you expect to see?

[kfriedman]

John -
The short power forehand taught by the great teaching pro Rick Macci is one that we see most often on the Men's tour and one that I teach my students.
I agree that too often the windshield wiper aspect of the forehand stroke is misunderstood and junior players lack elbow drive (extension) on contact. It's the drive part of the "whip-drive" groundstroke component that my favorite internet tennis mentor Doug King talks about in his Acceleration Tennis approach. I'm a huge fan of your site and insights as well...

[johnyandell]

Right that backswing and windup are bigger than Rick and Brian Gordon's model for sure. BUT the interesting thing--same with Sock--what is the meaning of pointing the racket tip forward? Does it enhance the effect of the Macci/Gordon flip? Or is it unnecessary motion?

[stotty]

I can fathom there might be some potential benefit of the racket pointing forwards...lag perhaps. But when I experiment with this kind of thing myself I have timing problems. The shot feels complex and tough to get out on time under duress. I guess if one has spent years perfecting the timing for it and you have the talent to pull it off, it can work.

I can't warm to the kid but he's got talent, that's for sure.

[eaglesburg]

I used to have a kind of but not really similar backswing. The tip wasn't pointing forward, but I would kind of raise and lead the backswing with the elbow.
Here it is in April: https://youtu.be/_JsJGo1apJs
This is something I worked on fixing overt the summer before I ever signed up for this site. I worked on keeping my elbow tucked more and the racket tip pointing up more on the take back. This definitely made it easier to time the ball for me. So I agree with Licensedcoach that kyrgios's forehand is difficult to time.

[johnyandell]

Yeah it's going to be interesting to see if the trend continues. Roddick did it. Fed has a mild version. As usual the players decide.

[nickw]

Interesting to see these variations, and to see whether they become more common going forwards.

I think the racket tip pointing forwards must be adding to the effect of the flip, making that position with the tip could be likened to pulling the slingshot a fraction further back before letting go!

I have to agree Kyrgios is not as extreme as Sock, and as I commented on the Sock thread, these boosted flip variations don't appear as efficient as the Macci/Gordon model, even if they do generate more pace/spin. Timing must be harder to achieve if the ordinary tennis player were to copy them.

If these more extreme flips are putting extra stress on the body, then how much? Enough to increase the risk of injury further down the line? If not, then could the added difficulty factor involved, simply become the new requirement for the ATP forehand, or will the more efficient Macci/Gordon model remain dominant?

I'm not convinced enough to stop prioritising efficiency when teaching technique.

[kfriedman]

Right that backswing and windup are bigger than Rick and Brian Gordon's model for sure. BUT the interesting thing--same with Sock--what is the meaning of pointing the racket tip forward? Does it enhance the effect of the Macci/Gordon flip? Or is it unnecessary motion?

John - with respect to the racket tip pointing forward during the initial prep phase of the forehand stroke I've noticed a number of top pros doing this in varying degrees, for example we see it in Nole's prep. Fed does a version of this but it's more of a turning out of the racket face. His racket face starts out pointing down and in front of his chest and then as he turns his hips and shoulders Fed turns his strings so his palm is facing the right side fence. I've tried copying this prep and it seems to work well providing a better set up for more topspin as I pull the arm and hand forward to contact. Does this make sense?

[johnyandell]

Yes! Question of amount of it and timing of it right?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/ND_FH_Center&stroke=ND%20FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Front%20250fps.mp4

[nickw]

Another example of racket tip pointing forwards, and this guy had a bomb of a forehand!

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/fernando_gonzales/fg_forehand/fg_fh_center/fg_fh_center.html?FGFHCenterNeturalStanceFront.mov