Katrina Adams in 15-30

[DougEng]

15-30 is a interactive publication online put out by USTA. John Yandell and other have contributed to it. I would like to see any comments on the following.

http://tennis15-30.com/issues/2013/02/30/

Go to slide (page) 5 (I think) and you will see Katrina Adams' article and video. Katrina was a world-class player reaching as high as 67 on the WTA Tour. She is a commentator on Tennis Channel (in USA). She is an active volunteer with USTA (Vice President) and fine contributor to the tennis community.

Please watch and give comments. Forget Katrina's impressive credentials and discuss what her article/video is about and whether you agree or not. Regardless, in such exercises, it is important to have respect for the contributor (Katrina). In professional scientific journals, peers review articles before they are accepted (unlike tennis magazines/publications). So this type of professional, objective review is acceptable in many fields. Think of this as a critical thinking and coaching exercise. I will add mine (since I don't want to influence anyone) after reading a few.

Best,
Doug

P.S. I have never started a thread before, so it's my first: an exercise in thinking for us. There are 2 other article in this 15-30 that provide debatable information on the serve (one by a good friend). If you can spot them and bring them up, it's a bonus point for each!

[stotty]

The kicker

15-30 is a interactive publication online put out by USTA. John Yandell and other have contributed to it. I would like to see any comments on the following.

http://tennis15-30.com/issues/2013/02/30/

Go to slide (page) 5 (I think) and you will see Katrina Adams' article and video. Katrina was a world-class player reaching as high as 67 on the WTA Tour. She is a commentator on Tennis Channel (in USA). She is an active volunteer with USTA (Vice President) and fine contributor to the tennis community.

Please watch and give comments. Forget Katrina's impressive credentials and discuss what her article/video is about and whether you agree or not. Regardless, in such exercises, it is important to have respect for the contributor (Katrina). In professional scientific journals, peers review articles before they are accepted (unlike tennis magazines/publications). So this type of professional, objective review is acceptable in many fields. Think of this as a critical thinking and coaching exercise. I will add mine (since I don't want to influence anyone) after reading a few.

Best,
Doug

P.S. I have never started a thread before, so it's my first: an exercise in thinking for us. There are 2 other article in this 15-30 that provide debatable information on the serve (one by a good friend). If you can spot them and bring them up, it's a bonus point for each!

Okay, typical of me, I will plunge in first. I've been plunging in head first all my life...makes my wife wince.

I find this instructional video fine. It is very sparse in detail, however, and misses an abundance of details. But as an absolute minimum it seems acceptable.

Was the article the short piece of text next to the video? Very short. Not and article, more a mini walk-thru. Or is there a full article somewhere that I missed?

When I teach the kick serve, I make sure the student has the ability to develop it so it will be truly effective. My own kick serve was never great and sat up to be hit. I don't want that with my students. If I don't think the student will be able to master it effectively, I don't teach it.

I know some of you will wince at what I am about to say (plenty have...I imagine Doug will writhe on the floor) but I'll throw it in the mix anyway. I often teach the student to follow-through and finish down the hitting side of the body (right side for a righty) so they get encouraged by the reverse bounce it so easily produces. Before you start crying "PHYSIO", I only do this for a very short period of time, just to give kids the idea what it feels like to hit up and across the ball right to left.

By the way, I have followed through and finished down the right side of my body all my life with no ill effects...shoulders fine. Old school servers from years gone by did so too.

I'd be really interested to hear what others think of the video. I found it way too sparse, to be honest.

[10splayer]

Not crazy about the whole "arch" the back tip. Would never promote that image. I try to get players to bend the knees, tuck the tail, and keep the spine straight (even though it's on an incline) as the player begins to move up at the ball..This can be a bit more physically demanding, but important initially, IMO.

Not sure I understand the "up and over the ball" tip either.

In fairness though, these "quick" tip videos are tough to cover a shot in any depth..

[GeoffWilliams]

Short and sweet. All top servers arch their backs, Sampras #1 among them. Gives more kinetic voltage.

[stotty]

Arching

Not crazy about the whole "arch" the back tip. Would never promote that image. I try to get players to bend the knees, tuck the tail, and keep the spine straight (even though it's on an incline) as the player begins to move up at the ball..This can be a bit more physically demanding, but important initially, IMO.

Never thought of it like this. I looked quickly at a clip of Becker, who seems to do as you say.

I guess if a player arches out of the way to hit the ball, the weight has to go more backwards and not forwards, is this correct, 10splayer?

[10splayer]

Short and sweet. All top servers arch their backs, Sampras #1 among them. Gives more kinetic voltage.

I guess it depends on your defintion of arch. And when....If you look at Sampras, as he begins to push against the ground, his back is not arched (at least my defintion ef bending of spine) In fact it's rather straight, just on an incline.

[stotty]

I guess it depends on your defintion of arch. And when....If you look at Sampras, as he begins to push against the ground, his back is not arched (at least my defintion ef bending of spine) In fact it's rather straight, just on an incline.

Yes, I've just watched Stich and Edberg do the same. They always appeared to arch to me but, under examination, actually they are not. They are all doing exactly what you say.

[10splayer]

Never thought of it like this. I looked quickly at a clip of Becker, who seems to do as you say.

I guess if a player arches out of the way to hit the ball, the weight has to go more backwards and not forwards, is this correct, 10splayer?

One of the more important things to understand IMO (in terms of injury prevention) is that when the legs start to drive up, it will cause more bending of the spine. A force multiplier as it were. So if a player bends the spine in the ready to launch stage, as they explode up, the back will bend backwards even more to perhaps dangerous levels..

And yes, I do think weight distribution, as you mentioned, is also a factor.

So to me, the blueprint is: Get the player in an "incline bench" postion before the leg drive. As it starts to kick in, the spine will bend enough (but not too much) to handle the more left toss...

I think if you look you''ll see this with most players.

[stotty]

Arching

One of the more important things to understand IMO (in terms of injury prevention) is that when the legs start to drive up, it will cause more bending of the spine. A force multiplier as it were. So if a player bends the spine in the ready to launch stage, as they explode up, the back will bend backwards even more to perhaps dangerous levels..

And yes, I do think weight distribution, as you mentioned, is also a factor.

So to me, the blueprint is: Get the player in an "incline bench" postion before the leg drive. As it starts to kick in, the spine will bend enough (but not too much) to handle the more left toss...

I think if you look you''ll see this with most players.

Yes, I've been studying the archive and concur completely. Any arching that does take place seems to come as the player comes out of the leg drive, around the point of the upward swing...that simply has to happen if the ball is at 11 o'clock...or 1 o'clock in Jimmy's case.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/jimmyconnor/jc_serve/jc_2nd_serve/jc_2nd_serve.html?JC2ndSAdRear.mov

To purely arch and not let the knee bend take the load doesn't seem to exist in the archive.

[10splayer]

Yes, I've been studying the archive and concur completely. Any arching that does take place seems to come as the player comes out of the leg drive, around the point of the upward swing...that simply has to happen if the ball is at 11 o'clock...or 1 o'clock in Jimmy's case.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/jimmyconnor/jc_serve/jc_2nd_serve/jc_2nd_serve.html?JC2ndSAdRear.mov

To purely arch and not let the knee bend take the load doesn't seem to exist in the archive.

And this is a good image...If the knees bend, and the tail is tucked, the upper body will tilt back on an incline to find balance.

[johnyandell]

You guys understand this way way better than Katrina.

This is really one of the very disappointing things in a lot of popular instruction. Ex-players making definitive statements that mislead a lot of players and possibly even lead to injury.

Playing and teaching are most often at opposite ends of the skills spectrum.

[DougEng]

Thoughts

Given the amount of feedback already, I might as well give my take now.
John Yandell didn't want to say too much since it was already stated
and sometimes it's best not to criticize directly. But John's implications
are on the button.

Explicitly, 10splayer hit it on the button. Also, Stotty (licensedcoach) the follow-through on the dominant side is acceptable and is a characteristic of the American Twist serve. The kick and American Twist produce the same spin. Katrina is actually describing upwards racquet path of the American Twist serve. That very vertical drive is then followed by the follow-through on the right (e.g, Fabrice Santoro). The modern kick serve is a different motion, at 2 o'clock and the follow-through tends to be more normal. The American Twist serve is more strenuous on the back since there is often some lumbar back extension (aka back arch). The extension probably maxes out at 10-15˚, which is minor. The modern kick serve doesn't need the same lumbar extension.

The concept of arching the back has been essentially thrown out by biomechanists and the sports medicine community since there is concern about back injury (as with Stefan Edberg had some problems). In the serve, most people use 10-15˚ of lumbar extension but relying on this to produce power has been suggested to lead to injury. It is not a source of power as with, for example, use of legs, hip over hip, internal shoulder rotation, wrist flexion or long axis rotation.

The lumbar region of the back has maximum extension of 25˚ but the serve may be typically 10-15˚. Maximum hip extension is 25-30˚, on the serve, realistically it may be 10-15˚. Together, the total backwards extension might typically be 20˚ (30˚ is exceptional). However, it may be confused solely as back arching. That is, hip extension is often confused with lumbar extension or back arching since it occurs concurrently in the serve loading position.

So if hip/lumber extension is not for power, why do it? American Twist serves require the toss to go behind the left shoulder or front left of the front shoulder. To hit the ball slightly back, extension backwards occurs as the player looks upwards. Since gravity is a force, the upper back is now off balance, which obviously creates a lean back. As the legs initiate the kinetic chain, the legs will straighten out first before translating energy upwards. A delay in the upper body results in greater extension. In a modern kick, the toss does not need to be as far back and hence, lumbar/hip extension can be less. The modern kick is therefore less strenuous on the back than the American twist. Federer is a good example of a proponent of modern kick serve. Without significant extension, he can get significant spin.

Second, Katrina's description of the racquet coming over the ball is incorrect.
She demonstrates the racquet coming around about 90˚ (1/4 circle) of the ball. That motion was often used by coaches in the 50s through 80s but is rarely used today since we know the ball typically stays on the racquet strings in the order of a few milliseconds where the racquet can only travel a few inches and not enough to go around the ball. About 5 years ago, after a lecture/presentation I gave, I heard a fairly well respected coach take the same things I said and misinterpreted it to what Katrina said. So it is possible, even today, with high speed videography and science, people still misunderstand.

Kudos to 10splayer.

Also there was a lively discussion of the "arching of the back" concurrently with the knee bend. Essentially, the body tilts back (with slight hip and lumbar extension) as knee flexion (bend) is typically 90˚. That can tilt the body above the knees maybe 30-40˚ as the lower legs tilt the opposite direction. Add the 20˚ of combined lumbar and hip extension and you get a nice L tilt. From this early cocking (biomechanist term) or loading position (or popularly trophy position), knees begin to straighten out as energy is translated through the hips (to get hip over hip action).

The arching of the back has been misunderstood much like arm extension. Many coaches still teach extension as reaching upwards to the ball. For many beginners, this translates to reaching above the shoulder line. Extension is really produce by shoulder over shoulder (from hip over hip) tilt. If you tilt the shoulders, in extreme examples of powerful serves (e.g, Sampras), the shoulder over shoulder tilt is ca 70˚ which allows the arm to reach up. Club players often only tilt less than 30-40˚ and still try to reach up which creates shoulder impingement. I find this also common among average ranked juniors.
The upper arm basically should only raise 10˚ at maximum above the shoulder line.

Attached are 2 slides from the ITF biomechanics presentation on the serve which can help foster understanding of body position/joint mobility during the serve.
(itftennis.com).

Best,
Doug

[DougEng]

You guys understand this way way better than Katrina.

This is really one of the very disappointing things in a lot of popular instruction. Ex-players making definitive statements that mislead a lot of players and possibly even lead to injury.

Playing and teaching are most often at opposite ends of the skills spectrum.

Dead on, John.

[GeoffWilliams]

Another great cause of shoulder injury is the lack of any internal/external rotation, and all "snap" is from wrist flexion, not forearm pronation and no shoulder rotation, and a "stiff armed" serve results in hurting the shoulder.

sampras motion
sampras serve oh
sampras serve sideways

sampras french open

For those who say Sampras did not arch his back: frame 12 and 14. He curved his back to start, hunched over forwards, and kept it curved the entire stroke moving from hunched curved forwards, to curved sideways on finish.

[GeoffWilliams]

sampras serve ARched: frame 4-5-6-7-8