Interactive Forum: June 2008 Pete Sampras: Serve Placements

[EricMatuszewski]

The legend goes that Pete could hit every serve off of the same toss. When Pete was young the legend goes that his coach would call out which serve type to hit after Pete had already tossed the ball and he would have to make the target.

Like some freshly initiated monk at the shoulin temple learning to snatch a pebble out of his masters hand before he could close it, legend goes that Pete would fail miserably for months until one fateful day.

Dehydrated and exhausted and baking under the brutal Los Angeles Sun, he was ready to quit trying and go play some golf, when he had a vision.

It was a vision he'd had before, but this time it was so lucid he could smell it. He saw himself on center court at Wimbledon lifting the trophy, with his idol Rod Laver clapping. He envisioned the ball kids looking on with reverence and awe and when the voice of his coach woke him from his dream he tried again.

Only this time was different. The ball seemed to float. More like a puff of cigar smoke than a felt covered piece of rubber, just waiting for him to decide what he wanted it to do.

He heard his coach call "T" and rather than trying to contort himself in some way he simply turned his thumb down a little earlier on the way to the ball.

His coach called "wide" and he turned it down later.

And the art of the disguised serve was mastered.



Pete Placements




Pete Placements KeyFrames

[EricMatuszewski]

QuickTime Versions

Pete Placements




Pete Placements KeyFrames

[gsheiner]

Amazing stuff.

As I play around with delayed versus early pronation as the variable that changes the direction of the ball, I get a very distinctive difference in feeling and I wonder if this means that I am doing it correctly or incorrectly.

The slice serve ( wide) feels very natural with the pronation and triceps extension occurring very fluidly.

The down the middle serve with earlier pronation feels as if more of the power comes from the shoulder as opposed to the triceps extension.

In other words, I feel more shoulder in the down the middle serve and more whip like triceps action on the slice ( wide serve).

Should both serves feel exactly the same?

[EricMatuszewski]

I always wondered how Bruce Elliot came to the conclusion that pronation in his landmark study, was not a big contributor to ball speed. It seems so tough to separate pronation and internal rotation when the elbow is extended, because your dealing with rotation all around the same axis.


How important is tricep contaction on a serve?

And is the ratio of internal rotator contraction (as a % of max) to tricep contraction related to target choice? Sounds like a good research question.

If the tricep was a big contributor, you would think that tennis players would have relatively large triceps. My casual observations are that the triceps relative to the pec and the shoulders on top players seem rather atrophied, suggesting that tennis is less of a tricep sport.

If someone has a shirtless Federer pic where we can see his tricep it would be helpful.

[BrianGordon]

I always wondered how Bruce Elliot came to the conclusion that pronation in his landmark study, was not a big contributor to ball speed. It seems so tough to separate pronation and internal rotation when the elbow is extended, because your dealing with rotation all around the same axis.


How important is tricep contaction on a serve?

And is the ratio of internal rotator contraction (as a % of max) to tricep contraction related to target choice? Sounds like a good research question.

If the tricep was a big contributor, you would think that tennis players would have relatively large triceps. My casual observations are that the triceps relative to the pec and the shoulders on top players seem rather atrophied, suggesting that tennis is less of a tricep sport.

If someone has a shirtless Federer pic where we can see his tricep it would be helpful.

Eric-

Some of your questions have been answered already on this site (except the ratio/target choice question) - if you really want to know how Elliott distinguishes longitudinal rotations of the arm segments I'd suggest:

The original idea (from our lab):

Chung, C.S., Kwak, C.S., Choi, K.J. and Shin, I.S. (1990). Three-dimensional analysis of the spiking arm during the volleyball spike. Korean Journal of Sport Science, 2, 124-151.

The background study:

Sprigings, E., Marshall, R., Elliott, B. and Jennings, L. (1994). A three-dimensional kinematic method for determining the effectiveness of arm segment rotation in producing racquet-head speed. Journal of Biomechanics, 27, 245-254.

Elliott - the "landmark" study:

Elliott, B., Marshall, R. and Noffal, G. (1995). Contributions of upper limb segment rotations during the power serve in tennis. Journal of Applied Biomechanics, 11, 433-442.

My take in brutal detail:

Gordon, B.J., J. Dapena. Contributions of joint rotations to racquet speed in the tennis serve. Journal of Sports Sciences. Jan. 2006, 24(1): 31-49.

Most of these are available on the web these days - you are quite right that the extended arm has created problems in differentiation (but not for the reason you mention) - got that one whipped though - Brian

[EricMatuszewski]

Thanks for the citations, I'll see if I can access them.
Eric

Just read your abstract, whole thing costs $28.00

skin movement, yes that's seems like a tough one to get around. . .

The korean article doesn't seem to be on topic. Perhaps I got the wrong one.

I'll try again later.

[BrianGordon]

Thanks for the citations, I'll see if I can access them.
Eric

Just read your abstract, whole thing costs $28.00

skin movement, yes that's seems like a tough one to get around. . .

The korean article doesn't seem to be on topic. Perhaps I got the wrong one.

I'll try again later.

Only $28.00, what a bargain (kidding) - contact me and I'll send the e-paper to you - Brian

[stickman]

i got a shirtless pic of fed!!! and your not seein it!!! Mine i tell you!!!

the gye in the yellow shirt has a nice smile, i tell you that!

[johnyandell]

Yeah that guy has been smiling and staring into space for years...he doesn't seem quite right, but may just love Pete...

[jmhtennis]

relax

He is so relaxed through the whole stroke. Notice the eye blink in the "wide" view. You think Agassi ever blinked during a service motion? I doubt it.

[johnyandell]

OK, I've waiting. But no one has stepped up with a good explanation. We've got here the clearest demonstration of the differences in racket path on the down the T versus the wide serve ever made available for study.

What is the difference and how would you teaching it???

[stickman]

Well i use very different ways of teaching the serve. I use simple references to get people to do what i want them to do.

So first of all, the serve down the middle , "using pete" i say "hit the net post. " So when you lead the racket to the ball , use the same toss and the same swing just change the angle the racket attacks the ball at, towards the net post .

The serve out wide , i say "hit the side fence" So when you lead the racket to the ball , use the same toss and the same swing just change the angle the racket attacks the ball at, towards the side fence.

This is for the add side.

Believe it or not using these simple references really makes a huge difference.

This is how i made up my serve, and it works for me , and i have not worked with one person who tryed it and didnt say , why didn't i think of that?

[kensan]

Firstly, thank you for shooting such fascinating video and bringing up such thought provoking questions.

After watching this video (and one from Jeff Count's site, the one of Grosjean serving a slice wide from the deuce court) AND going out and exclusively practicing serves from the ad side, and then re-examining this video, my explanation would be thus.

I would not focus on how much pronation is done but the end result. That is, sampras is hitting a slice wide and a topspin down the T. In order to generate enough slice, he pronates however much he needs to (in this case out to his right, okay I did talk about how much pronation is done) to accomplish this. For the T serve he is not generating slice as much as topspin or maybe kick so the pronation direction is different.

With regards to "how much" pronation I would prefer the student go out there and serve some up and learn that feel for themselves, with the guideline that to serve slice you pronate up and to the side and with kick / topspin you pronate mostly up.

My 2 cents without having really mulled it over.

[kensan]

And one more point, when I say sampras is serving a topspin or kick serve down the T, I mean a fast one. Versus a safe loopy one which would have a more upward component.

I liken the aforementioned explanation to cranking a forehand off a high ball deep into your opponent's court. You would still be imparting spin but not a loopy spin. And thus you see sampras imparting spin, but not a loopy spin, more like a driving spin.

For clarity I'm talking like how Federer drives winners off a high forehand, not like how Nadal might say loop it off a high forehand.