Interactive Forum November 2011: Rafael Nadal - Serve 2010

[johnyandell]

As we address in an separate article this month (Click Here), something changed in Rafa's serve before he won the U.S. Open in 2010. And here is that new motion from the Cincinnati Masters, just prior to the Open that year. There is a controversy going on as to what changed and how it happened. As the article from Christophe Delavaut explains, Rafa spent some time with a Spanish coach named Oscar Borras. The video Borras made of that work appears to show Rafa making some fundamental structural changes, especially around the trophy position. Borras is now suing in the Spanish court system for recognition. Rafa says Borras wasted his time. Check out the article, and then check out the high speed footage of Rafa at Cincy and see what you think yourself. if you wish, you can cross reference it with the footage from 2008 in the original High Speed Archive! (Click Here). Fascinating stuff!

Rafael Nadal - Serve 2010

[Alfred140mph]

Gorgeous footage of Nadal! I would say that the coach partially changed Rafa. His trophy position looks like the video in the article. His left arm looks about the same as before. His feet look different. Why is it that no one in the media and tv ever talked about why Rafa was serving this way? What happened in this year?

[don_budge]

Lefty slice...MIA?

Will somebody please tell me why Nadal has never "developed" the prototypical lefty slice to the backhand in the ad court? Even at only 99 mph this is a very effective tactic to take your opponent out of the court.

[stotty]

I still cannot understand for the life of me why Rafa continues with that abbreviated swing. Even with Oscars improvements it still doesn't look right.

When he sets up at the baseline in the clip, just try to visualize him taking a nice, deep swing like a good lefty should...picture it in your mind....better, isn't it? His serve has never looked right to me. I'd like to see him take a full wind up and hit a full blooded serve with loads of slice. I just have a gut feeling it would work better...

[westcoast777]

An extended arm...not always

I think it's important to mention that Nadal didn't always extend his arm away from his body so dramatically.
Scroll down a bit and watch the video of the changes made in Rafa's serve, analyzed by Doug Eng, http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...ervice_rhythm/

[stotty]

I think it's important to mention that Nadal didn't always extend his arm away from his body so dramatically.
Scroll down a bit and watch the video of the changes made in Rafa's serve, analyzed by Doug Eng, http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...ervice_rhythm/

It still goes a long way from his body...just not so high.

The trouble with Spaniards is they often settle for popping serves in play and relying on their good ground shots to do the rest. There aren't too many Spaniards, past or present, that can bazooka a great serves down. As for volleys...the only time a Spaniards ventures to the net is when he's forced there, or to shake hands.

I think Nadal really could serve better. I wonder what his serve would look like if he practiced a classic motion for a while. Maybe he's tried a classic motion in the past but it didn't work with for him. The trouble is we don't know the history or what's gone on in the past.

I just feel, and always have since day one, that his service action isn't the right one for him.

I say get tennis_chiro and don_budge on it.

[zakito]

Looking at the footages I think that now when he reaches the trophy position he is more balanced then before, the left arm is less extended and so he is able to put more body weight in the shot compared to the past where he needed more help from the arm.

[jimlosaltos]

What Does Rafa Say?

[QUOTE=johnyandell;16122]As we address in an separate article this month (Click Here), something changed in Rafa's serve before he won the U.S. Open in 2010. And here is that new motion from the Cincinnati Masters, just prior to the Open that year.(Click Here). Fascinating stuff!

Rafael Nadal - Serve 2010

First, the video is great. Extremely interesting.

But I find it perplexing that the author chose to ignore what Rafa himself says. Perhaps it doesn't fit the narrative.

Did Rafa truly start hitting serves at 130 MPH at the US Open 2010? Rafa, interviewed during the tournament said, "Is the same as Wimbledon." And, in fact, using the larger, much slower Slazenger balls at Wimbledon, Rafa hit as much as 129 MPH there BEFORE the USO. That's equivalent or better than 133 with the quicker Wilson balls at the USO.

As for the statement that Rafa's serve was "ineffective" before the supposed changes, I take strong exception to that. What's a polite word, ah, that's revisonist history.

I remember when Andrea Agassi met Nadal in the Montreal final, Agassi, a truly great returner, said "I expected to be able to attack his serve, particularly his second serve, but I couldn't because it has so much spin. I couldn't do anything with it."

Rafa's heavy, slice serve has always been a key part of his game. It's not always about getting free points. In his approach it is about getting court position because the opponent can't attack the serve, hits a soft block return, which allows Rafa to run around and attack the return, starting the rally on the offensive.

The last time I saw Rafa hit his "new, better" serve was from the stands at BNP Indian Wells, when he lost to Djokovic. Repeatedly hitting in the 130s, left him with a low first serve percentage, and didn't gain him anything. After that he went back to the old, heavy lefty slice.

Not saying that was a turning point or a conscious decision, but wondering.

Lastly, Uncle Toni said this fall that Rafa was suffering from a sore shoulder. Any correlations? Don't know.

[johnyandell]

Well, one fact is that the changes with Oscar occurred at the end of 2009 so that was pre-Wimbledon 2010 obviously. And no doubt the motion looks different compared to before--at least the trophy position. Haven't taken a close look this year.

[xstf]

Rafa & Oscar the story behind the video.

John Yandell asked me to bring you guys up to date on the story behind the video...

In the fall of 2010 I did a video showing that Rafa's dramatic serve improvement was never about a grip change but a motion change:

http://youtu.be/sfA3RlAXpdg

I did that video out of frustration since every single announcer kept on talking about how he (Rafa) moved his grip from a continental to moderate eastern forehand grip (like Boris Becker) and that was the reason his serve got better.

I met Oscar in Madrid at the Master 1000 this past spring and he gave me the video of his lesson with Rafa (as proof and for me to show the world he was the one who help Rafa's serve). He shared his frustration that the Nadal camp never recognized him as the person who help Rafa's serve. In his own words Uncle Toni told him they (Rafa's camp) fixed Rafa's serve and that Oscar had nothing to do with it. After numerous attempts to get Rafa to admit Oscar was the one who helped his serve, his pursuits fell on deaf ears. Oscar hired a lawyer and sued the Nadal camp. Oscar said that trying to sue Nadal is like trying to sue the Pope in Italy! In an interview with Rafa last month as to why he was not going to play Bercy (Paris 1000), a reporter asked him about the video and Oscar. Rafa responded " the only thing Oscar did was to waste my time, next question".

I was contacted by a sports reporter from the New York Times and spent an hour talking about the lesson and Oscar. He was going to ask Rafa about the tape and get back to me but I have not heard back from him yet. So the lawsuit is still pending as of last week.

One interesting note: Oscar told me that Rafa had never seen himself in slow-motion before, on TV yes but never for the purpose to study is swing.

I know that it is not uncommon for coaches/camps/entourage not to give credit to outside help. Phil Dent helped out both Michael Chang and Sharapova's serve a few years back and was never given any credit when their serves got better shortly after. The biggest one in my opinion was Rick Macci and the Williams sisters. Why is tennis so different than the golf industry where pro golfers have full time coaches but also have specialized coaches for their short game or putting. Just a thought.

I will keep you posted as I speak regularly to Oscar.

Christophe.

[stotty]

Very curious...slightly suspicious

John Yandell asked me to bring you guys up to date on the story behind the video...

In the fall of 2010 I did a video showing that Rafa's dramatic serve improvement was never about a grip change but a motion change:

http://youtu.be/sfA3RlAXpdg

I did that video out of frustration since every single announcer kept on talking about how he (Rafa) moved his grip from a continental to moderate eastern forehand grip (like Boris Becker) and that was the reason his serve got better.

I met Oscar in Madrid at the Master 1000 this past spring and he gave me the video of his lesson with Rafa (as proof and for me to show the world he was the one who help Rafa's serve). He shared his frustration that the Nadal camp never recognized him as the person who help Rafa's serve. In his own words Uncle Toni told him they (Rafa's camp) fixed Rafa's serve and that Oscar had nothing to do with it. After numerous attempts to get Rafa to admit Oscar was the one who helped his serve, his pursuits fell on deaf ears. Oscar hired a lawyer and sued the Nadal camp. Oscar said that trying to sue Nadal is like trying to sue the Pope in Italy! In an interview with Rafa last month as to why he was not going to play Bercy (Paris 1000), a reporter asked him about the video and Oscar. Rafa responded " the only thing Oscar did was to waste my time, next question".

I was contacted by a sports reporter from the New York Times and spent an hour talking about the lesson and Oscar. He was going to ask Rafa about the tape and get back to me but I have not heard back from him yet. So the lawsuit is still pending as of last week.

One interesting note: Oscar told me that Rafa had never seen himself in slow-motion before, on TV yes but never for the purpose to study is swing.

I know that it is not uncommon for coaches/camps/entourage not to give credit to outside help. Phil Dent helped out both Michael Chang and Sharapova's serve a few years back and was never given any credit when their serves got better shortly after. The biggest one in my opinion was Rick Macci and the Williams sisters. Why is tennis so different than the golf industry where pro golfers have full time coaches but also have specialized coaches for their short game or putting. Just a thought.

I will keep you posted as I speak regularly to Oscar.

Christophe.

Well, that's a wonderful insight, Christophe, thank you. Many of us do wonder what goes on in the the coaching set up of world-class players. But there are a couple of things that don't sit well and need explaining:

1. How did Oscar get the opportunity to spend an hour coaching Rafa? In the video, at least at the beginning, neither Rafa nor Toni seemed enthusiastic about Oscar's coaching advice. So why did they agree to it in the first place?

2. Having agreed to give Oscar their time, why did they allow the session to be filmed? Was it done secretly? Did Rafa and Toni know they were being filmed? This seems odd to me. The coaching of a world-class player so high in the rankings, you'd think, would be done in total privacy. The body language of Toni and Rafa did improve throughout the session but was never totally convincing. I'm suspicious about the videoing and how the session came to take place? This will certainly all come up in court!

There is something odd about the reluctant body language of the Nadal's in the video. Now, either they were somehow coerced into the session by having to pay back a favor to someone, or maybe Oscar pestered them to death, or maybe there's some other bizarre reason....whatever, there is something odd about it.

The session was brilliant, though, an education to all of us. Oscar must have self-belief and conviction to have continued the session in the face of such reluctance. He succeeded in the end, didn't he?

I do entirely agree with you that coaches are too possessive about their students, their asset. A team of coaches is much better than one, I feel. And, yes, some coaches are much better than others in certain departments of the game. I often wonder whether the coaches of tour players are really all that good. People more studied in the game such as Oscar, some coaches on Tennisplayer, and our very own John Yandell might perhaps be better placed to give cutting edge advice.

[bottle]

All true, and very interesting your idea of a team of coaches being better than one.

Something I wonder about is whether tennis coaches and teaching pros ever develop the same philosophy of thanklessness that excellent teachers do in other fields.

This philosophy says you teach for the sake of teaching with no idea possible of how it's all going to come out and certainly with no thought of much external reward.

You meet a student, one out of 500, ten years later, and she or he tells you that you weren't too bad. This could be the most you can expect.

The most promising student turns into a dud. The dud, who couldn't even make the Penn varsity, becomes the number one player in the world. A teacher can't even carry on without being open to all such surprises.

Thanklessness-- that's the reward for good or any kind of teaching. And good teachers don't take credit. They let the student take the credit.

Second, don't claim ANY technical or tennis ideas for yourself. Tell yourself you're a goddamn capitalist, and then reform, and share ideas, money and humanity among the populace.

[xstf]

Oscar and Rafa cont....

Oscar told me that it took at few months to reach out to Rafa. He was able to get hold of him through JC Ferrero and told Toni Nadal that he could fix Nadal's serve. Since it came from Ferrero and I believe that Oscar worked on Ferrero's serve in the past they agreed to give Oscar 90 minutes. In my opinion there is nothing suspicious about the filming you can clearly see that it was not a cell phone camera nor a hidden device, but i just wrote him an email asking him if he was given permission to film.
You are correct as I mentioned in the video both Rafa and Toni were not very thrilled at the beginning but their mood became more positive as the lesson went on.
In my opinion it is very clear that Toni does not know anything about breaking down a stroke or teaching fundamentals.
I just wrote Oscar and asked him if i could release the uncut version of the tape. A part i left out was that he had Rafa throwing right-handed as well, he looked worse righty then lefty which leads me to believe that Rafa might not be right handed after all. Remember Toni said that he was the one to switch Rafa from righty to lefty at an early age.
Thanks for you response, I will let you know as soon as Oscar answers my email and hopefully he will agree to let me release the original uncut version about 25 minutes long.
Christophe.

[bottle]

Yeah, good. Very interesting. The world however declares a moratorium on the ownership of all tennis technique ideas.

[stotty]

Intriguing

Oscar told me that it took at few months to reach out to Rafa. He was able to get hold of him through JC Ferrero and told Toni Nadal that he could fix Nadal's serve. Since it came from Ferrero and I believe that Oscar worked on Ferrero's serve in the past they agreed to give Oscar 90 minutes. In my opinion there is nothing suspicious about the filming you can clearly see that it was not a cell phone camera nor a hidden device, but i just wrote him an email asking him if he was given permission to film.
You are correct as I mentioned in the video both Rafa and Toni were not very thrilled at the beginning but their mood became more positive as the lesson went on.
In my opinion it is very clear that Toni does not know anything about breaking down a stroke or teaching fundamentals.
I just wrote Oscar and asked him if i could release the uncut version of the tape. A part i left out was that he had Rafa throwing right-handed as well, he looked worse righty then lefty which leads me to believe that Rafa might not be right handed after all. Remember Toni said that he was the one to switch Rafa from righty to lefty at an early age.
Thanks for you response, I will let you know as soon as Oscar answers my email and hopefully he will agree to let me release the original uncut version about 25 minutes long.
Christophe.

Christophe, This has certainly becoming an interesting thread. I guess it's tricky for you as the third party, having to go back and forth to verify information.

It occurred to me that Nadal's coaching set up with Toni is so tight that they may have never sought the help of an outsider, so maybe they were just naive in letting someone film the session and didn't realise the consequences that might arise from it. After all, Toni's experience of fame has only been as long as Nadal's. I imagine Toni has learnt his lesson now.

Ferrero has a decent serve for such a slender man. On that basis, it would seem logical that when the Nadal's took the decision to accept Oscar's offer to improve Rafa's serve, they would do so with open arms, not with reluctance.

You see, the main sticking point is exactly how did the 90 minute session come about. Was there some pressure involved to make the Nadal's feel obligated to entertain Oscar's offer? If this was the case, it would go some way to explaining their initial reluctance.

Like I said, it's tricky for you as third party messenger. If you liase with Oscar about events, it's logical that Oscar will give you a version of events that weigh in his favor. I imagine the Nadal's are unreachable for you so therefore you cannot quiz them for their version.

I can see the relation between Oscar's input and Rafa's sudden improvement. I am definitely erring towards Oscar's camp more than the Nadal's on the evidence so far. But I like to get to the bottom of things and would love to know what really happened. I am experienced in unravelling things and can tell you the key to the truth lies (and nearly always does) in how things first started.

Logic dictates the Nadal's somehow had to reluctantly agree to Oscar's offer...but became impressed....stole his coaching skills...then lost their way with it. A betting man would put money on this scenario, but I do like facts, Christophe. Try to get to the bottom of it...I'm intrigued