Interactive Forum March 2010: More New High Speed Footage! Djokovic Forehands

[johnyandell]

So here is another example of the new Tennisplayer high speed footage: 2 forehands from NovakDjokovic, filmed at 250 frames per second.

You see many of the characteristics of high level modern forehands: the unit turn, the extension, and the massive wiper finish. My question to you students of the game out there is what to you make of his backswing after the hands separate. And maybe you will notice some other important and/or other interesting aspects that I am missing. Let us know what you think!

Djokovic Forehands

[johnyandell]

Quicktime version

Djokovic Forehands

[jryle1]

It's quite strange how when his hands seperate the racquet starts off facing the side fence...then the back fence but THEN his racquet turns even more so thats its nearly facing towards the camera or the side fence we can't see. He then seems to lower it "on edge" but not like del potro...i dont know what you'd call it..."reverse on edge?" before it straightens out again to face the ground...really strange...I wonder if has any relevance to the quality of the stroke itself...I doubt it would...

[gsheiner]

Doesn't he just supinate earlier than a lot of other players who tend to supinate later (as they're dropping their arms into the hitting position?)

[sejsel]

It's quite strange how when his hands seperate the racquet starts off facing the side fence...then the back fence but THEN his racquet turns even more so thats its nearly facing towards the camera or the side fence we can't see. He then seems to lower it "on edge" but not like del potro...i dont know what you'd call it..."reverse on edge?" before it straightens out again to face the ground...really strange...I wonder if has any relevance to the quality of the stroke itself...I doubt it would...

It does make sense, altogether, when you look more closely to it.

One might argue (this is an impression I've got by looking at it for the second time) that the risk for ending up with the "dead wrist" with his grip(s) would be substantial if he was doing otherwise - here referring to the racquet head pointing where it does at different stages of his forehand.
This is just a naturally evolved way of doing the necessary things when hitting with so much western.

His pattern of turning the face of the racquet throughout the stroke is the "means to an end" - racquet head accelleration & imparting the rpm's onto the ball.

[cms56]

Djokovic Forehands

Not exactly the most elegant or economical of movements, is it? It appears to happen because he pronates the hand at full extension of the arm. However, whether it is pronation alone (from the elbow down) or involves external rotation at the shoulder, it requires a counter move in the forward portion of the stroke. Further, it does not appear to contribute meaningfully to muscle stretch through lag in the kinetic chain. This would appear to be idiosyncratic, not exemplary, and while interesting, not the least bit worth emulating or otherwise using as a recommended model.

Having said that, look at baseball pitchers and the orientation of the palm of their hands at full extension, and you see all kinds of variations. Clearly, lots of variations work just fine even when they depart from optimally efficient motions.

[sejsel]

Not exactly the most elegant or economical of movements, is it?

Looking from "that" perspective, certainly not.
Very idiosyncratic, although as a whole, the movement is all in purpose of generating power and spin with pronounced western grip. Hence some of the things he does in initiating phase of the stroke (most notably the direction in which the racquet head is pointing - he is far from alone in it today).

It appears to happen because he pronates the hand at full extension of the arm. However, whether it is pronation alone (from the elbow down) or involves external rotation at the shoulder, it requires a counter move in the forward portion of the stroke.

One might look at it as the causal relationship, pronation can be regarded as the means of getting certain benefits with (or by) being "forced" to make that counter move - since that counter move bears some responsibility for the end product. Or pronation as a trigger (not conscious one, but natural evolvement) for what happens subsequently.
I wouldn't go here into quantifying the contributions of the subsequent counter move to different elements of the end product (how much of what is imparted on the ball), it is worth noticing that this pronation and his grip might be in close connection. Some would argue that much of what he does and much of what is idiosyncratic is one (successful) adaptation caused by the grip, to begin with.
Then again, look at some other players with western grip, and it will be easy to start looking at common elements of the forehands, not only across different grips, but even within the same grip style.

Further, it does not appear to contribute meaningfully to muscle stretch through lag in the kinetic chain. This would appear to be idiosyncratic, not exemplary, and while interesting, not the least bit worth emulating or otherwise using as a recommended model.

Agree completely, only with small (off-topic) digression:
That, non meaningful contribution is, from coaching point of view ( I am fully aware that You are not discussing from that perspective fully, or at all) ok. as an element of the stroke, as long as it doesn't impede the biomechanical efficiency of the stroke.

In other words, one wouldn't teach it, nor take it as exemplary theoretical model for everyone, but accepting it as a coach acknowledging it as fully functioning idiosyncracy. Personally, I am not a huge fan of this model of the forehand, but it works, it has to be recognized and understood as a fully functioning and efficient model.
Although far from "optimal" or optimally efficient for faster surfaces.

Having said that, look at baseball pitchers and the orientation of the palm of their hands at full extension, and you see all kinds of variations. Clearly, lots of variations work just fine even when they depart from optimally efficient motions.

Wery well said.
Very good analysis indeed, cms56

[cms56]

Thanks, sejsel. Nice that somebody gets me, every once in a while. You're right to make a distinction between "coaching players" and "teaching biomechanics." Not your words, I know, but something you are addressing in spirit. There really is a difference. I think your conclusion is truly astute. While the mechanics might actually be desirable for someone who really needs to feel a full windup, they might also be downright overwhelming for a player who needs to keep things contained. More later.

[johnyandell]

I love it when you guys talk this way.

[uspta4272442435]

legs

i notice in the 2d forehand novak tends to rotate hips and pivots with right foot rather use quads to explode more into the shot. he didn't seem rushed and had time to unweight up into the ball but didn't

[jryle1]

i notice in the 2d forehand novak tends to rotate hips and pivots with right foot rather use quads to explode more into the shot. he didn't seem rushed and had time to unweight up into the ball but didn't

He's using the footwork moves that David Bailey has coined "The Bailey Method"......The first one is a "Low Spin" I think and the second one is called a "Mogul" .....one of the coaches in my club has done a course in it for teaching it and I'm learning it with him and the difference it makes to the quality of the stroke is SCARY.....the even scarier thing is that most of the pro's do it NATURALLY...they never learned it....if u watch Roger's feet they are amazing!!

[johnyandell]

I'm impressed with the analysis in all these posts.

The footwork analysis is very interesting, and you guys identified my original question.

Not really sure what the answer is. If all player rotate the hand and arm to close the face to a certain extent in the backswing, is there some advantage to continuing this motion to the extreme of Djokovic? Is the amount of counter move--to borrow a term from one of our posters--contributing to racket head speed in some way?

Not sure. Like Brian Gordon to strap Novak into his new 3D machine and see.