Interactive Forum February 2010: Roger Federer Serve - High Speed

[johnyandell]

For over 5 years, Tennisplayer has pioneered the study of high speed video stroke clips on the web. Now we are taking it to the next level with a new High Speed Archive we'll be introducing soon. And here is a taste of what is to come.

Filmed with the same cameras used in network superslow replays, this footage is high definition, with frame rates that are as high as 500 frames per second. We'll have hundreds of these clips over the next year, but let's start with a serve clip focusing on the arm action.

Roger Federer claimed winning Cinncinati after the birth of his daughters meant more to him than his 16th Slam at the Australian Open. OK, well here is the service winner he hit on match point. Let us know how you like the new format and what you see in this amazing clip!

Federer Serve - 2nd Serve Ad Wide

[alechorton]

awesome Clip

John, this is amazing. the last time I saw this super slow mo this clear was when I was working with Vic Braden. We were using film that shot at 30,000 frames per second. Actually another Jon (john zimmerman) was doing the high seed filming at the time.
Absolutley amazing..Keep up the great work.


Alec

[stumphges]

Awsome addition John! Love being able to see details such as the oscillation of the racquet head after impact. Can't wait to see more.

[rosheem]

Awesome

This is beautiful. Just what I've been waiting for.

My initial impression is that the arm action actually seems pretty simple. One theory that I've been cooking up seems to be supported by what I am seeing here:

At contact, it appears that the ball is actually resisting the twisting of the racquet and pushing back against it for a brief instant. I think this is the key moment of "feel" where there is the sensation of working the ball. It's not so much a proactive brushing of the ball or flinging of the racquet head through contact, but more of an interaction with the ball as the force from internal shoulder rotation resists the ball pushing against the stringbed.

Also notice how this internal shoulder rotation happens mostly AFTER the elbow straightens. To me, it seems like this straightening of the arm helps to re-engage the big body parts so that the internal rotation puts the weight and speed of the whole body onto the ball.

Please, please....don't hold out on us, John. If you have similar clips of other serves and serve locations, put them up! I want to compare this to a kicker out wide to the ad side. I would also like to see a first-serve bomb down the T on the ad side.

Beautiful work. You get a really nice look at his grip as well.

[johnyandell]

I thought you guys might like this...next Djokovic's forehand. We will be putting up a completely new high speed archive of this footage starting sometime probably in early summer...we'll keep some clips coming in the Forum til then...

[jimj1961]

Wow John, just Wow!!!

One thing I noticed is how far the right elbow drops in the sequence...

[cayagua]

Federer Ace Wide

John, thanks for the video.

Note that the racket travels in one continuous movement. Federer does not get to the trophy position and then pauses. The racket never stops moving, it goes thru the trophy position as it continues to travel to the drop position.

The other point I found interesting is that he hits the "slice" by hitting what to me appears is the center of the ball with the racket travelling from his left to his right. This appears to contradict Dennis Ralston article on Tennisplayer on the wide slice where he states you must hit thru the outside of the wall.

[uspta2069759277]

Jerry Winder,USPTA

Love all your stuff, John! Eagerly await all issues, and this is just more icing on the cake!! Great Work!

[zdenekcernoch]

John, this is amazing. the last time I saw this super slow mo this clear was when I was working with Vic Braden. We were using film that shot at 30,000 frames per second. Actually another Jon (john zimmerman) was doing the high seed filming at the time.
Absolutley amazing..Keep up the great work.


Alec

30 000 frames per sec...??? i am not sure about that speed....even with Mr. Braden...

[makhan67]

Great Work by John Yandell!

And also watch Federer's tossing arm which stays extended beneath the ball. His tossing arm does many things for him and it can also do it for you:

-- it places the ball for him
-- keeps his body balanced
-- see how his left arm, right arm, react with each other
-- keeps his body weight flushed back to his back foot so that it will go into the hit.

These simple things if done greatly result in great tennis strokes.

[bottle]

He certainly does demonstrate a basic option other than bending the arm half way then closing it the second half with upward pressure from leg. No, he gets the arm all folded up by the time his head (his human head) reverses direction at its lowest point.

Then the two halves of the arm are glued together through quite a few numbers on the offset imaginary clock face that characterizes the early winding of arm when seen from this view.

One classic piece of instruction is to make a "quick pinch" between upper and lower arm followed by quick, muscular straightening of whole arm. It works, but here Roger is doing a different thing-- keeping the arm folded for a distinct period of time between those two actions-- and with no ultimate loss of racket head speed.

[bottle]

Before the arm starts to extend, the elbow rises independent of the body, and this happens near the TOP of the upward body thrust-- in other words is delayed.

It is delayed and thus part of the rapid, last instant power sequence upward: elbow before arm extension, arm extension before upper arm twist (with everything slightly overlapped as in all best athletic movement).

This answers an earlier question I had-- whether one can throw elbow backward (inward) in a kinetic way-- or whether elbow in a fast serve has to rise in a slow, stretchy way.

"One" may or may not "throw" elbow upward (hence inward or backward) with speed, but Roger certainly does.

In this video film, elbow rises at a certain speed, arm then extends at a faster speed, and arm then twists faster than that (it seems to me).

[llll]

if you watch his eyes he seems to watch his opponent up until the relases of the ball in his toss. he also does not fix his head after contact like he does on his other strokes.
john once again you are cutting edge. great video

[stmoore]

wow, cool

Not sure what to do with, but cool and impressive. Seeing the two frames before contact through 4 frames after contact it is indeed interesting to watch the ball compression, decompression and ball rotation coming off the racket.

Makes one intuitively appreciate the contribution of string and string bed properties and ball compression factors. Why it is always fun to serve with new balls and good strings.

Nice work,
Steve in Cincinnati

[bottle]

Here are three different ways of describing a single mini-motion in this film. One or more of them might help somebody figure out the overall pattern well enough to make it work when he tries it. (Dancers are good examples of people who can work from words to athletic motion-- in a flash-- among their many learning tricks.) 1) the racket tip crosses the tossing arm beneath the hand; 2) the racket tip crosses in a horizontal way; 3) the arm is bending up. So why doesn't the racket tip go higher? Because the elbow is going down relative to the body at the same time.